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May 7, 2005

Where's Terri?

Topics: News
MIAMI - The family of a severely brain-damaged woman who died after her feeding tube was removed in March said Friday they still have not been told where her remains will be laid to rest.

Terri Schiavo's parents and siblings, who waged a lengthy court battle over her end-of-life wishes, said on Fox's "Hannity & Colmes" show that her husband is keeping her remains from them.

"They were supposed to tell us, and we still have not heard from ... Michael Schiavo where Terri's been laid," said Terri Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler. "Our family expected this. Michael has disobeyed court orders throughout the ordeal and continues to do so today."

Posted by Ian at May 7, 2005 11:28 PM

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Why does this not surprise me any? I really believe that Michael Schiavo should be investigated by a disinterested party to see what can be found on him. Then Judge Greer needs to reiterate that the family is to be told where she is.

Posted by: ConstitutionistLaura at May 8, 2005 2:11 AM

My thought is that her remains have not been buried - that Michael is waiting for publicity to die down and possibly for the autopsy results.

As for Bobby Schindler's statement - "Michael has disobeyed court orders throughout the ordeal" - not correct. The courts "betrayed" the Schindlers. Both parties used the system and Michael prevailed.

I am sure I will get slammed for this one!

Posted by: Blogging Beth at May 8, 2005 7:37 AM

Of course Michael disobeyed court orders. He was ordered to provide yearly reports on the medical care he was giving her. (But he wasn't so he didn't.) He knew with Greer in his pocket, those court orders would never be inforced.

AND an impartial 3rd party IS investigating the case. Mark Fuhrman's book is coming out this summer to expose all to the world, and frankly, I think this was far more explosive news on the Hannity interview than Schiavo's non-compliance with notifying the family where the ashes are. Without Fuhrman, the "unsolved" Martha Moxly case would never have gotten the attention it deserved, nor would her killer Michael Skakel have been convicted and be sitting in prison right now.

This ain't over yet. Both Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer need to be in prison.

Along with EVERY SINGLE police guard who blocked the Schindler family from bringing her food and water. "Only following orders" did not wash in the Nuremberg Trials, and it should not wash here.

Posted by: Suzanne. at May 8, 2005 9:05 AM

Trying to be the voice of reason before we change our nation to a police state -

Suzanne -
Read your last paragraph and think about what you are saying. Just because you did not agree with the court ruling, you want public officers to disobey orders and not enforce the ruling. Think about the reverse - the feeding tube is in - some of the police officers don't agree and allow Michael Schiavo or George Felos to go in a rip it out. Now is that right?

As for Mark Furhman being an impartial third party - anyone who is in Sean Hannity's back pocket is not impartial.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at May 8, 2005 9:44 AM

Oh, Puhleeeeeez. Relativity does not apply in Good vs Evil. The objective Truth is, Greer ordered the starvation of an innocent human being, just like Hitler did. And those police guards ensured that it happened, just like the Auschwitz guards.

Let the trials begin.

A jury found Michael Skakel guilty, using objective evidence that Mark Fuhrman first exposed to the world.

Just because you, Beth, personally don't like objectivity doesn't make it irrelevent.

Posted by: Suzanne. at May 8, 2005 9:52 AM

Thank you Suzanne - you just made my point.

No law - no relatively - just YOUR Good vs. Evil.

Try living in that world for awhile.

I am sure I am going to get my share of "she's here again stirring up trouble" or "why are you here - when you don't support our cause" - I will tell you why:

- When a fundamentalist "Christian" (I use quotes because I always believed that Christianity taught tolerance) throws out members because they defied a pastor's order and voted for the Democrats - I am wondering where this country is going.

- When right wing extremists refuse to debate any point and, instead us a mentality of "we're right" and you are morons - I am wondering where this country is going.

- When political nut jobs like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Glenn Beck are associating themselves with the Republican party - my party of registration - I am wondering where this country is going - and seriously considering changing my politial affiliation.

- When COMPLETE strangers are sticking their noses into the lives of families and making private tragedies forums of public debate - I wonder where this country is going.

- When elected officials and public servants are criticized and threatened for doing their jobs and enforcing the laws of this country - I wonder where this country is going.

- When people are questioning the ethics of organ donation - I wonder where this country is going. And I wonder, if it was your child who needed my heart, my lung, my kidney - would you question then? Because I would never question giving life to someone else.

And don't bother coming back at me with "when people are starved to death" because, before Terri Schiavo, the decision to remove feeding tubes was made PRIVATELY in millions of hospital rooms, assisted living facilities, hospices, and at home. That is where is should be.

I am waiting for one person to stand up and say they don't want to live in this country as it stands. I will applaud anyone who does.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at May 8, 2005 11:15 AM


You're right: "she's here again stirring up trouble, why *are* you here?"

Any argument which contains: "fundamentalist Christian", "tolerance", "right-wing extremists" and "Rush Limbaugh", is rendered null and void.

Those are simply the ravings of a kill-'em-'cause-I-wouldn't-want-to-live-that-way Moonbat!

I offer this opinion respectfully, of course.

Posted by: Tom Spence at May 8, 2005 11:28 AM

Try living in the world for awhile? Um, are we supposed to? And objective moral standards rather than everything being subjective and relative? I found a recent ad campaign by Planned Parenthood advocating that the Catholic Church and the new pope adapt themselves to modernity most amusing. I suspect J. Ratzinger aka Benedict XV1 is going to adept himself to modernity at the urging of Planned Parenthood when pigs fly mach 2. I, for one, thank God for objective moral standards and those with the faith and courage to live by them

Posted by: dea at May 8, 2005 12:49 PM

Thank you Tom - you FURTHER prove my point.

No discussion - just blatent dismissal.

You certainly will win people over to your cause with such insights.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at May 8, 2005 2:09 PM

Thank you BB. I'm glad to be of assistance - whatever your point was. You see, it is impossible to *prove* any point when the basis of the point is the shifting sand of the relativistic "YOUR truth." By introducing that dodge, one immediately abandons any connection to right/wrong, truth/fiction or sanity/moonbattiness. You left yourself no leg to stand on from which to launch your attack because I could just as easily use your argument against you and say: "well THAT is YOUR truth."

Come back when you can present coherent and logical arguments to prove your points. Until then, again, you rendered your own argument NULL and VOID.

Posted by: Tom Spence at May 8, 2005 2:41 PM

All truth is God's truth. You don't have to agree with it, but it exists nonetheless. It's given to everyone in written form, so you will have no excuse when Judgement day comes. For those who puke their pablum, and would argue to the cows come home that killing any innocent human being is okay, I pray that God will show you the mercy that you abstain from giving others. As for Mark Fuhrman looking into the case, I say "Go to it" and let the chips fall where they may.

Posted by: rubyzgirl at May 8, 2005 3:03 PM

Blogging Beth,

You so obviously don't have a clue about anything that it is almost a sin to respond to you. But after months of your pointless and inane comments, I think it is the better half of charity to give you at least one clue, and here it is:

You have an awful lot of growing up to do, an awful lot of honest to goodness THINKING to do and in all kindness I recommend that you don't publish anything at all until you have done that growing and thinking. I would spare you embarressment if I could, for some day I hope that you will have accomplished maturity and you will be embarressed by what you have said here. So...least said, soonest mended. Go. Ask God for wisdom.

Posted by: mary et. al. at May 8, 2005 3:18 PM

You know, Blogging Beth mentioned that she doesn't know of anybody who wouldn't want to live in the United States. How arrogant and pious an attitude. OK Beth, here it goes: I am a United States citizen, and I would rather see China overtake this country and assumes rulership over it. That way, murderers like Michael Ross wouldn't be able to get away with raping and killing 8 women like he did, and he wouldn't have had to fight for his execution. Michael Schiavo would have probably been taken out and shot as well. As for myself, I would rather be in Italy where my rights to food and hydration would be upheld should should it become necessary. Do you have a problem with that, sis?

Posted by: MrCoffee at May 8, 2005 5:22 PM

Blogging Beth, I think that there are others who have said all that is necessary when it comes to the little rants that you make. It seems to me that you have not bothered to find out the truth about this case.

Suzanne is right when she says that those police officers have behaved in the same way as the Nazi guards in Germany during the 1930s and 40s. I wonder how many of them are also members of the cult of Scientology, for their very Nazi style behaviour suggests that they are in the pay of that cult if they are not in fact members.

Yes, I am prepared to go further than Suzanne in what I am saying because someone needs to throw water in your face and over your head. It needs to be more than water, because it needs to be very icy to wake you up to what is happening in your country. If you do not realize that your own life is in danger as a result of this case then you are a bigger fool than I thought.

It seems to me that you want to use subterfuge and false argument to get people off the topic, which is of course that once again we see that Michael Schiavo is continuing his mentally abusive behaviour, and his wilfull disobedience. One of the court orders happened to be that he was to disclose the burial place of Terri. He has not complied with that order. He is playing a dangerous psychological game, probably in the hope of causing even more psychological harm to the Schindlers. He is a liar, a wife abuser and he deserves to be in prison.

In my own grief over my sister and now my concern because my great nephew is about to undergo his heart operation, I am ready to lash out at someone who is just too stupid to see the light. Yep, BB, that pertains to you.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian. I am a Catholic and I am proud to be Catholic. The actions of the Baptist pastor has nothing to do with the Christians who defended Terri. Besides you are wrong if you believe that everyone who defended Terri were Christians, let alone fundamentalists. The same is also true of the political differences that exist amongst the bloggers. We came from all walks of life, and yes there are people who defended Terri's right to remain alive who are liberal or left wing.

So get that through your head and start behaving in a more mature manner.

Posted by: Maggie4life at May 9, 2005 5:15 AM

Maggie -

First - my best wishes are with your nephew. You may question my sincerity but please do not. Heart problems are scary things. I hope he does well.

Second - I disagree with your comment that my own life is in danger. It is not. My wishes are made clear to my mother, brother, other family members and friends. They are written down - extremely specific. No - I do not want a feeding tube. No - I do not want artificial means to keep me alive - if there is no hope of recovery. This is my choice - and I will be judged by my God when the time comes.

I will not even comment on the statement of living in a country under the rule of China. Yea - all those female babies waiting for adoption - great system.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at May 9, 2005 8:08 AM

There are many opinions regarding the wishes of someone when dealing with life and death. On paper, is a good start to stop most confusions.
But what if there isn't anything on paper? Who do we believe? Who speaks for those who can't?
Do we blindly trust the word of a spouse, when clearly there are conflicts of interest? Do we blindly trust a Judge, when facts point to THAT person's conflict of interest?

I haven't followed this case for long, but in the time I have, I'm at a loss to explain how callous people can be, when obvious problems exist. Common Sense should have prevailed here, and it didn't. In a criminal case, this would have been retried and appealed till the moon fell out of the sky, and it wasn't.

I have 'debated ' with some folks thru this Blog world, and not one had an argument that could stand up to justify the killing this woman.

You might talk of high moral ground, the LAW being followed, etc etc etc. I ask, which laws were followed? The disobeying of subpoena's? The law that mandated police forces to BLOCK access by other POLICE forces to the hospice? That a Judge ordered a Sheriff to use FORCE to block federal authorities to enter the hospice?

Since when, did one man, in a black robe, have THAT much power in this country?

You claim it was all for rights. Of whom? Family?
The state? The court? The Government?

I remember rights too, being enforced. The rights to keep blacks from voting and schools. Federal troops corrected those wrongs. Was that wrong?
I remember when people abused children. The state steps in to protect those kids. Is that wrong too?

We bemoan when the authorities step in, yet demand that they do on certain cases. We talk about how easy it is do DIE, yet will fight like demons to stay alive, if only for one more moment.

I have not followed as closely as others on the Terri Schaivo case. I HAVE tho, expressed my opinions on it. I have expressed myself to whoever could listen, to whoever WOULD listen. I would have hoped those who COULD have done something HAD listened. How unfortunate, no one apparently did.

I tried to keep emotions reigned in, and speak objectively as well. As a father of my own children, I must commend Mr Schindler for his composure during it all. I cannot say I'd have acted the same. I would like to leave some of my writings here, if I may. My apology for the increase of emotions in each.

Perhaps, they'll reach those who can provide justice for Terri. Perhaps...


We wept as a nation, when a President was assassinated. We demanded justice, when the Doctor for Civil Rights was slain.
We mourn the loss of a 9 year old child.
Here, we can only fight each other. Over what.....Rights?
The Rights of whom? The Nation? The State? The Husband?
The family? The victim?
We fight to save those who attempt to kill themselves, and force them to accept medical treatment to SAVE their life, when the suicide attempt is SURELY a sufficient way for them to say, " I DON"T WANT TO LIVE THIS WAY. "
If Terri HAD attempted suicide, she surely would have been SAVED, then medically evaluated for up to 72 hours, forcibly detained IF she resisted, and medicated IF she became combative. And all the while, she could/would be screaming, NO I DON"T WANT THIS, as she's treated anyway.
Rights? Michael Shaivo's lawyer would have us believe, we have no RIGHTS to force LIFE on those who choose to die.
Last week, 2 Sacramento Sheriffs saved two people from committing suicide in the Jail. What RIGHT did those Sheriffs have to save those people, who chose Death over life?
I am fully able to speak my mind, feed myself, and move about with no difficulty. Yet, I'm more helpless than Terri Shaivo is now. How so? Because, no matter how loud I speak, or to whom I speak too, it seems as if no one cares or is listening.
We can shape mountains, change the course of rivers, help nations, visit the stars.........for all of that, we can't stop the slow execution of one of our own citizens, by starvation.


"The right to life does not imply that sick individuals have a claim to medicine, medical services, or hospice care at the involuntary expense of others. That is socialism.
When individuals turn over their financial responsibility of paying for their own medical care to government, then government will make life and death medical decisions, not individuals. "

Since when is feeding someone and giving them water, a MEDICAL SERVICE? Since when is food MEDICINE?
Obviously we've all been mislead! Obviously,we're ALL dependent on the Government to FEED us! Oh my god, we HAVE no choice of life, for we are taking the GOVERNMENTS food and services!!

I'm not sure which part of absurdity or stupidity, this falls on.
I will presume, the standard has broader implications. So, let's start with....
Welfare recipients. We'll then move to people on FOOD STAMPS. Medicare/Medicaid people are next. Homeless people should follow, as they sometimes need care and can't pay for it either. How about those silly prematurely born babies.....yep, they cost too much too, and require special medical care they can't pay for as well. DEFINATLEY, we can include prisoners in jails....and so on, and so on.

Since this story started going national, not ONE SINGLE person can justify this woman's murder by our courts, or her husband. ALL the arguments that are presented, are stripped and defeated time and time again, because this case is about one sole issue: A person's right to life.

You can say, " but she's been like that for 15 years! " AND?!?!
Testament to her WILL TO LIVE as opposed to her DESIRE TO DIE!
Ask anyone who's watched a perfectly healthy person, die for no other reason than that their will to live, left them. They had no desire to continue, and simply gave up. If THAT was what Terri wanted, SHE would have given up, no matter HOW much food we gave her. She didn't.
She's not GIVING UP NOW!

Smother your parents with a pillow, and see how much they'll fight to survive. After all, they are receiving Government medical services at our expense.

The service? Clean air. Kept clean by the EPA.

Go figure.


How sad the events are, as we watch the literal execution of a woman on national television. Truely, a horrible day for liberty in this nation.
Consider this tho, in light of the stories information coming out in trickles:

1) Recently, 7 Senators left here to visit Iraq, and witness the emergence of democracy, yet not one has gone to Florida to stop the murder of a citizen.

2) Scott Peterson was tainted by statements HE made to Amber Fry concerning his wifes " death " when she wasn't declared dead yet. Michael Shaivo has stated on Larry King, in front of his lawyer, that " Terri has been dead for 15 years. "
If that's so?, why in the first medical report ( some 13 pages long ) does is say she received pain medication? If she's ' brain-dead' why the pain medications? If she had died 15 years ago, what is she now?

3) Who was present in the room when the feeding tube was removed? Some say, Michaels girlfriend was present. Is that true, or rumor? We don't know, as no one is speaking.

4) Scot Peterson was convicted by 12 jurors; Terri Schaivo is being convicted on hearsay evidence provided by her husband.

How helpless does Terri feel now?? All you have to do is look in the mirror to know. You'll see yourself, fully healthy, able to walk/talk/communicate, and UNable to stop the murder of an innocent woman. Why has no one tried to feed her normally?
Why has no one, with Senators present, TRIED to see IF she can communicate??

Posted by: LNaranjoiv at May 9, 2005 1:07 PM

Part II


Mr.. Lunsford makes good points, as does both David and Rush Limbaugh. My name is here numerous times, in the hope it GETS someone's attention, to DO something in the face of DOING nothing.
We can thank those who wish to devalue Marriage, for surely this case takes us there. The seeds of doubt are now planted, and all one has to do, is say that their spouse, " Didn't want to live like this. ", and you're finished.
We can thank those who wish to destroy family values, for once our children are of legal age, and are married off, WE as parents have NO rights at all. Even in the face of blatant ' conflicts of interests " will we be ignored.
We can thank those who wish to destroy our society, by holding a public execution. Not quick, not a hanging, or public burning, but by slow, torturous death.....one by starvation. As is stated here, we won't even execute criminals like that.
No argument can uphold the BASICS of this case:
Terri's right to LIFE.
Every person in this nation, must now protect themselves, guard their speech, for should you ever misspeak, you could very well lose your life and your rights. Law based on Hearsay.
Again, 7 Senators went to Iraq, not one has gone to Florida.
If you were to stand outside that Hospice holding Terri Shaivo, you could almost witness the following:

An enclosed camp, secure with Guards, preventing prying eyes from seeing what is happening inside. Only a choice few can see, know and witness.

You might see a Hospice in Florida.
I see, Auschwietz in Poland.


Such a shame, that history forever will record, that this nation suffered thru it's first, FIRST, court ordered public execution.
Wow. Who would have thought, that this nation would ever do that. Do that to it's own citizen. To kill someone soley on hearsay, under extreme circumstances that are becoming more and more dubious, with conflicts of interest running rampant.
How vain of a Judge, to deny due-process soley because when the case FIRST came to his bench, the decision to murder this woman had already been made. Due Process?
If the Shindlers had brought Jesus Christ himself into that court, it would have been mute: Judge Greer had already decided.

The old adage: You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, holds true here. You can force the judge to open his/her doors to the court, but you can't make them decide the case any differently than they already have.

Terri Shaivo seems destined to die, as if it was preordained.
I feel bad for that, but the other side has no idea what it's creating. You might be murdering her now, while she's mute, weak, immobile. You might be able to deny her life, and you might be able to deny her basic human rights. But you can't stop her voice. You can't stop her demand for justice. You can't stop this nation which will rise up to call for justice, to call for a review, to call for accountability.

Her voice will be those who KNOW that this is wrong; Her strength will be from those who CARE about life, and the passion that YOU PEOPLE have released, will be the bane of your ' death cause ' for years to come.

You have suppressed freedom and life for now, but you will regret the moment you've done so. Your suppression of the public, of her family, of the FACTS, WILL be corrected.

This week, we've watched your side use this woman, and we've endured your boasting of how you used the system to LEGALLY MURDER an innocent person, who's only crime has been: Her will to live.

I will take great pleasure in knowing, when redemption comes, how loud will you yell when your own methods are used against you.


My apologies for the length of these postings.
My thanks to the moderator for allowing the posts.
My thanks to those of you who read them.

My prayers to our nation, the Schindler family, and especially for Terri.

A footnote:

Pope John Paul died one day after Terri Schaivo.
He had one last task to perform. He brought the innocent soul of Terri to God, and HIS kingdom.

May she rest in peace.


Leo of Sacramento

Posted by: LNaranjoiv at May 9, 2005 1:12 PM

Leo, when I come back from Melbourne I will read your post again and will respond to what I think is the best ever comment. I would love to have you make a guest commentary on one of my own blog sites. I would love to copy the whole lot onto one of my blog sites because what you have said is just so eloquent.

From the bottom of my heart thank you for taking the time to express your own heartfelt feelings on this matter.

Posted by: Maggie4life at May 9, 2005 1:39 PM

Blogging Beth I see that you express the wishes of fools and the ignorant with what you claim that you have told your family. In the long run I hope that they do not obey your wishes because you have no idea what you are asking.

Let me tell you a little bit about what I know of my sister's condition in the past 6 weeks. If this does not wake you up to your own foolishness and selfishness then nothing will help you when it comes to your eternal destination.

My sister was ill and nobody was making an effort to find out the cause of her condition. She went from doctor to doctor as her pain continued to increase. She WAS NOT ABLE TO EAT OR DRINK and was was in AGONY. Finally, when it was too late, a doctor told my niece to rush her mother to the local hospital where she was admitted for tests. By this time she was down to 39 kg, that is she weighed less than Terri when Terri collapsed in 1990.

Whilst in hospital my sister was placed on an IV so that she received both nutrition and hydration. Her condition was very fragile. She had to undergo tests to find out what was wrong. The news could not be worse. She had cancer in the bones, spots on her lungs and the cancer was widespread.

My sister was a fighter. She did not want to die. We hated the idea of her being in so much pain. She was given everything necessary to help her during those few weeks before she passed away. My nieces cared for my sister at home. One niece had to come down from Queensland, leaving husband and family to be with her mother in her final days. The girls were devastated when they had the conference with the doctors at the cancer clinic and were told that my sister was too fragile to undergo chemotherapy and the radiotherapy had done nothing to control her pain.

A lot of that pain was due not to the cancer, but to what was happening to her body because she could not eat.

You say that you do not want a feeding tube. What a short-sighted comment. What if the feeding tube was only a temporary thing so that you could receive the necessary therapy to regain your function? Would you refuse the tube under such conditions?

Yep, short-sightedness and selfishness, that is what I hear from people who refused to see what was really happening to Terri Schiavo as she was being mentally tortured by her husband and then forced to suffer the physical torture of being starved and dehydrated to death.

Some people just do not think about the consequences of going with the flow. By accepting the culture of death and everything that it entails you are contributing to the desensitizing of people as the wickedness continues to spread throughout the world. Yes, it is wicked. It shows an utter disregard for human life, and it shows a selfishness that is most abhorrent.

Posted by: Maggie4life at May 9, 2005 1:56 PM

Leo - the passion of your words is deeply encouraging to me. That's what it's all about. That's what all of this has been about - a wake up call for us all from God. It's been obvious of late that everyone's been exhausted, that we're trying to recoup, regain our strength. I as well have rested for a few weeks. But isn't it obvious that the time is coming soon now when the Lord is going to call on all of us to stand up to evil with all of our strength, that the time for complacency is over. I, for one, as long as it's a passionate argument for that which is right and just, wouldn't mind seeing thousand line posts (um, okay - I'm clicking on the contribution button now.)

Posted by: dea at May 9, 2005 2:34 PM


I agree with Maggie. You are very eloquent and I'm thinking that we could use your eloquence in some of the tasks ahead. For instance, I hope to get some sort of info sheet on "what's in it for them", in fine, what do these people get out of these killings? I'm on the trail of a baby parts list I saw years ago. It lists how much was being paid for various baby parts back then. Out dated, sure, but it shows what was in it for them. Also there is bound to be big money in adult body parts, thus the undue rush to harvest people. And finally, I understand that Crystal Clear has found the money trail in guardianship. We all know the money trail to michael schiavo. All points would have to be made with the force of a bullet, I think. Any way there is a lot of composing that is going to need to be done so we will need composers. Please stay in touch.

Posted by: mary et. al. at May 9, 2005 2:41 PM


I've considered it a rest period, probably divinely ordained, too, but now I begin to fret about the dirth of bloggers. Other things have been going on behind the scenes, such as Juleni's heroic struggle to save Baby Charlotte, and I've been boning up on issues. Now I am convinced that the very first thing we must do is get the prayer warrior group going so there is no minute of any day that prayers aren't being said about this and these. Would you or Leo be interested--Please! Maggie come join us in this, we need you.

Posted by: mary et. al. at May 9, 2005 2:47 PM

The one thing I remember from school (about a century of so ago) was one of my old religion prof's saying, if the Church comes down to being three little old ladies in Africa somewhere, then three little old ladies in Africa will determine the fate of the world in ways which will become evident soon enough now. I've never really worried about numbers since. Anyway, I signed up for the prayer group on Charlotte's site, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do now (century old gray hairs, you know. Some will tell me, I suppose)

Posted by: dea at May 9, 2005 3:08 PM

Blogging Beth,

You wonder where this country is going? I wondered that myself when abortion was legalized many years ago.

I wondered that when divorce became so easy to obtain and families started shattering by the tens of thousands.

I wondered that when people started warehousing their elderly

and letting day care raise their babies.

Now I see clearly where this country is going.

School kids kill and rape at our public schools, and listen to music which glorifies the same.

It is a rare day when there isn't a missing child reported.

Most neighborhoods have at least one "registered sex offender".

Young people watch things on TV which promote destructive behavior.

Now it is politically correct to say, "Oh, I wouldn't want to live that way," which encourages people to cast off their burdens of caring for the sick and infirm.

You say you don't think fundamentalist Christians are tolerant. Well, they not only tolerate the old and infirm, they love them and care for them as well.

Christians are supposed to obey Jesus. A church is a private organization and does not have to please you, Beth.

Posted by: Quicksilver at May 9, 2005 3:45 PM

Well, dea, if you join this prayer warrior group you would pick an hour no one else has picked during which you pray in a focused and undisturbed way. You would be a petitioner before the throne of God for anyone who needs petitioning for, a praiser to offset the insults heaped on God and a thanksgiver to offset the ingrates. Right now I pray for a lot of people embroiled in this mess or vulnerable to embroilment, so to speak, but most of all for Baby Charlotte to be healed and rescued. I pray for people to join the prayer group, I pray for mercy on everyone, for conversions and deliverances, and whatever comes to the fore as needing to be prayed for. And I LOVE those three little old ladies in Africa!

Posted by: mary et. al. at May 9, 2005 4:46 PM

For " Mary et al " and her story...

And for those who think Judges are THE only law in this land. It should at least, pause you to think. It should at least, make you wonder, when you become aged and infirmed, what then? IF you become infirmed in your youth, what then?
Will it be their child, my child, yours?
What age will constitute," useless to society "?
Who makes the determination?

These listings now, seem to be inadequate.
Terri wasn't saved in the end. Her case tho, is still in limbo. Where is the autopsy report? Where is she buried? So many questions, so little answers.


" They are the Judges, THEY are the true power of the land. They answer to no one, no law, and have no accountability. THEIR word is law, and it's enforced by the Police. The people mean nothing, our laws mean nothing, our politics mean nothing. "

Somewhere in time, people had no idea, that a cultured nation was about to embark on murder the scale to which we had never seen. Eventually, 6 million people would be systematically killed, murdered with the cold efficiency of a production line, and the profits reaped from the corpses, their bodies, and their toil before their death.

And it all started with Euthanasia.

Practiced on those who the SYSTEM declared as " unfit, deformed, crippled, brain-damaged and not worth the time to feed, house or care for. " And the courts agreed.

They started with those who couldn't help themselves.
With soothing words, caring touches, soft voices, they rounded them up, herded them into rooms, and gassed them.
After the first few, the rest became easier. The rest, history has already documented.

Maybe America will follow in the same footseps. Perhaps, our nation, as sophisticated as it is, can't DO that to a group of people. No, we are too intelligent, too sophisticated, and too squeamish for that. No, we'll do it, one at a time, until such time that we will increase the numbers.

We've already set up the chambers: The Florida hospice holding Terri Shaivo.
We've already got protection: Judge Greer
We've already got the method: Starvation

All we need now, are more victims. Wait, I'm sorry, I meant to say, " Patients. "

( Sacunion.com post )

If I had a living will, the point would be mute. IF, my wife had exhausted all possible means to verify my status, then yes,
I would hope she carried out my wishes. Here, we don't have that. We have the word of one man.
You sir, could no sooner tell me what tests Terri went thru than I could, yet there you stand, shouting out how much you know. Would you shout just as loud to execute a murderer, after years of appeals, and also at taxpayer expense?

Have not Doctors been wrong in the past? How many times have we heard stories, of " THE DR SAID I"LL NEVER WALK AGAIN" , yet that person is walking now. Are we to allow Doctors god like powers of life and death over us all?

Doctor Mengelle had that power too.

You speak of tax-payer positions on caring for the infirm. We do that now sir, because we ARE compassionate.
Do we now start to justify medical care, based on the DOLLAR value of our lives? Tax-payer costs? The Stem Cell Research bond was passed in California, at the cost of 3.5 BILLION, or did you forget that already? THAT, sir, was the HOPE for people like TERRI, to get better. No chance of that, if she's murdered.

As for " rights "......need I remind you, not long ago, it was a RIGHT to own blacks? That they BELONGED to a person as private property? That we could not send black people to white schools?

I remember someone in Alabama pressing HIS rights to keep HIS schools segregated. I also remember, OUR government intervening as well, on the Presidents orders with Federal troops. Rights??

Can you speak FOR Terri? No. Can I? No. Only Terri can speak for herself, and so far, she's not being allowed too.

Today, it was stated in the New York Times, that " death by starvation is humane. " Let's apply the standard then, to a continent of starving Africans, of Death Row inmates, of poverty stricken people in THIS country.

You speak for an agenda.......I'm speaking for one who can't speak for herself. If we apply your logic, then let's punish those who SAVE people from attempting suicide. Who are WE, to force LIFE on those who WANT to die.

" Beyond a Reasonable doubt, or the defendant walks free."

If you have such fears, or concerns over YOUR affairs, given the same circumstances, then do a " living will ', so there IS no room for error.


( While I can't speak FOR Michael Shiavo, I think I came pretty close to his thoughts, during the days before Terri's death )

Easter Sunday, has came...and passed.
And Terri lives.
The weekend has passed and Terri lives.
We enter the 11th day of no food or water, and still, Terri lives.

How much more convincing will it take to make those who CAN save this woman, ACT!??!
If anything, her BEING alive this long is indication of ONE thing:

If Terri Shaivo wanted to end her time on this planet, she'd have given up on life 14 1/2 years ago; She WOULD be on a respirator or heart pump. She would have ceased to care to live.

That doesn't seem to be the case here. What we are witnessing is criminal, and it's in the SAME STATE that said NO to returning Emillio Gonzalez back to Cuba. What happened then? That child is in Fidels hands.

Wow, how ironic. The US Government on one hand, delivers unto Castro, an innocent child by force.

On the other, it's preventing a woman from living by force as well. We like to speak of PRECEDENCE when establishing LAW....what precedence does this action take? Since when does a JUDGE tell police how to act " unlawfully "?

More MICHAEL SHAIVO conversations are coming out now, one from a past interview, with the so-called HUSBAND informing the host, " he didn't know WHAT Terri wanted."

Okay, so the next time some twit wants to use DNA to help save a prisoner from execution, we can safely say NO?? Hardly.

As the hands of time slowly pass us by, the life of Terri slowly dwindles out. I can hear the soothing, soft, comforting voice of the husband now:



Dea said, he/she was tired. ON Terri's last day, I TOO, was tired. Emotionally drained. I can only imagine how drained her family was as well.
I sent two letters to Mr Gibbs, the Schindler lawyer. Alas, events turned out differently.

Maybe this Blog is read by Terri's family. Maybe this BLOG is read by the family lawyer.
I hope so.

( 29 March 2005)

Dear sir,

First and foremost, I want to say I am in no way associated with the KFBK radio staff here in California.
My request for Mr. Gibbs is from a public standpoint only.

Here in Sacramento, this case has become THE main issue of the day, and has been for the past 2 1/2 weeks. This case has brought many conversations to head, and brought light to a very sensitive and private subject. The debate has created many arguments FOR and AGAINST re-inserting Terri Shaivo's feeding tube. Many other debates have circulated in this state concerning Terri Shaivo herself.

Tho this situation seems to have been ongoing for the past 15 years, it has to my knowledge, not been well known here in California. As information about Terri's case surfaced, more and more people became interested. Contrary to the POLLS taken by the so-called Press, nowhere does there appear to be the so-called 68% that want Terri to not be fed. ( These polls have been shown to be biased in their reporting as to her condition anyway ) While we here in Sacramento can only debate, and discuss, and air our opinions, a woman's life hangs in the balance.

Our local paper-online, Sacramento Union ( Sacunion.com ), has provided for many editorials on the subject. Many readers have posted comments on the main articles as well, voicing both concern and anger at this situation. True too, some have posted to show support to Michael Shaivo and his so-called, Giving Terri what she wants. ( Eerily similar to our recent murder case against Scott Peterson, to which you may or may not be aware of ) That case has similarities which are being aired and compared to THIS case as well.

I would hope that Mr. and Mrs. Shindlers daughter will pull thru, however, this does not seem to be the case. IF, sirs, that is so, can not either of you convince the Shindlers to initiate a " Wrongful Death " lawsuit against Michael? Of all the evidence presented and announced TO the general public, a rational, sane person can only conclude, there is TOO much doubt to NOT issue the directive to re-evaluate the case.

I would like to personally ask Mr. Gibbs, if he could at least, speak to people here in California, on the radio talk show KFBK
MARK's NIGHT TALK LIVE, and possible give people here in California, SOME information as to HOW people can help the Shindlers and/or Terri? ( The show host is Mark Williams, and a station number is 916-921-1530 ) Perhaps sir, Mr. Gibbs can at least, INFORM people here in California, WHAT is taking place, as opposed to the SPIN being placed on Terri's life, that SHE is the cause of this, by her Bulimia affliction.

I would also like to ask sirs, IF, Governor Jeb Bush is NOT able to help legislative or executively, WHY sirs, can't he...as standing Governor of Florida, be allowed to VIEW a citizen of his state, to ensure Ms Shaivo's needs are being taken care of?
People here are mad, some feel hopeless, most are uniformed of this case and Terri's plight. As more information is reported however, at least in California, there is the rumblings of anger toward Michael Shaivo. People here are already calling for a criminal investigation, as well as Civil investigations on ALL concerned who are basically murdering an innocent woman.

Some questions that have arrived have been as such:
1) truth of denial of any medical tests or therapy
2) truth to the fiancé's admittance into Terri's room at the hospice
3) truth to Michael gaining financially from Terri's death
4) truth to Terri's condition, and HOW it came to be

People here want to help, and are trying to help. ( In ways we only know how, sirs ).

IF, Terri dies, then all proof dies with her. All evidence dies with her as well. An autopsy may well destroy anything of credible value left. Cremation will cement her destruction. If Scott Peterson's crime against his wife is an example, what we are witnessing here, is the cold, calculating murder of a woman incapable of defending herself, against a husband who is using the state to justify her death, and cover his crime.

Terri Shaivo is fighting for her LIFE! If anything is being proven here, it's her WILL to LIVE, not her WISH to DIE.
For 15 years, this case has stayed out of the public eye, out of the national debate. It is time sirs, for both to end.

It's time, for Terri's voice to be heard, if not FROM her, then BY her thru people over this nation. The Shindlers have stood alone against a system determined to deliver their daughter to death. Let this nation now, stand with them to fight for their daughters life.

Please sirs, if the outcome is final, and she passes away, you both are in position to counsel the Shindlers.
They MUST prevail to tell Terri's truth! Not allow the LIE to spread, as it's being attempted.
We might not be able to save Terri, but we can at LEAST bring those who conceived her death, to justice.

I thank you for the opportunity to email you sir, and hope that this request is at least,considered.

Thank you so very much for all that you have done, and PLEASE sirs, give my regards to the Shindler family, on behalf of the people of California, and as one father to other.



(sent to the Schindler laywer, 4 April 2005 )

Dear Mr.. Gibbs,

Today I go to work, as if I have lost a sister I never knew. I would have hoped that the efforts of so many would not be callously pushed aside. It's a sad day for this nation, and for it's citizens.

I would like you to please pass along my condolences to the Shindler family. I hopefully, speak for many here in California, that we can in no way, feel the same loss as her parents, but we do feel sad inside.

I would like to ask again sir, please consider bringing a " wrongful death " lawsuit against Michael. The news papers online are already saying he stands to gain millions from book and movie deals.

If at all possible, there are people here in California that would like to assist the family, they just don't know how too. Is it possible for some representative to address this state's citizens on our local radio? The listeners here have been VERY supportive of Terri's cause, once we heard of it in detail.

For your information, our station is 1530 KFBK AM, Mark Williams Night Talk Live, 916-921-1530.

Lastly sirs, I would like to offer Shindlers a prayer and a thought:

They have fought so hard and long to keep their daughter alive. They were alone against the odds.
You have the heart of the country now, the ears of the nation. You are not alone, and we ask, that you let us help.

This weekend, our nation lost an innocent citizen, and this world lost a Pope. As a last duty to God, Pope John Paul II
brought Terri Shaivo to heavens door, and guided her in.
May they both rest in peace in HIS name.



There will doubtless be, many more TERRI's in the year's to come. There will doubtless be many more grieving families, given the plight of a loved one. If, all things considered, everything that can be done IS done, correctly, then there IS no shame to the final decision.

When doubt is cast tho, when your conscious tugs at you, and you feel uncomfortable....that's when the problems begin.

( on a lighter side, I liked the laywer joke concerning sharks...lol )

Posted by: LNaranjoiv at May 9, 2005 5:34 PM

Mary -

I did not go into minute detail of my advanced directives because [a] I was trying to keep my post short and [b] more importantly to me - they are my private business between my family and me. But yes - I do have a clause in there that, if a feeding tube or a respirator is needed as a temporary measure to facilitate my recovery, I would certainly want it. I do not want to be sustained if there is no hope of recovery.

I respectfully disagree with your comment about Terri - I believe she died some years before. I do not agree with how her situation was handled and I will continue to preach that message.

I understand the pain you are experiencing regarding your sister. If you have read any of my previous posts - you will know that two years ago (some 3 months after my father died) - my grandmother had a massive stroke. She had advanced directives and did not want a feeding tube. Our entire family was able to say our last goodbyes and visit her for a week. She died peacefully - with her sons and daughters around her. Even though she was 93 - it was still tragic. I struggled with going to see her that last week - it was too soon after seeing my father die. Fortunately - a very good friend - who I will thank until the day I die - forced me to go. She did not die from not having nurishment but from pneomonia and the stroke.

I believe it is ALL of our natural inclinations to fight to the end - never to give up. It is difficult to watch someone we love suffer but our own "selfishness" takes over - we want to hold to them as long as we can. Sometimes the greatest love we can have for someone is to let them go. I am sure my grandmother felt that. And, judging from the passion of your posts Mary - I am sure your sister did as well.

I do think - and I am not singling you out Mary - that there are some who do not view death as a natural course of living. Someone commented previously that, it is not possible to respirate and hydrate a "corpse". Well, we are getting pretty close to that - and if technology continues to improve at the rate it is - we will be able to do that. That is why the notion that there is not such thing as brain death is so alarming.

Is technology good? Absolutely! But, it raises some questions along the "does the ends justify the means" line. And I guess it is up to our moral upbringing to make those decisions. But I believe just that - OUR moral upbringing. In the end - I believe that I will be judged by my God on the decisions I have made.

This inevitably will lead some to retort with - "well - what about murder?" Murder obviously against another LIVING person is wrong. What about abortion? Here it gets stickier - because now we have the whole discussion of when does life begin? Do I believe abortion is wrong - absolutely! But I think that gray area will never get it legislated against. In Terri's & Teron's case - we have the issue of brain death/PVS. Again - another gray issue. Which is why I will always state that these are personal decisions to be made by the family. Of course, Michael Schiavo was Terri's guardian and he made a decision that other family members did not agree with. That is really what all the courts ruled on - that he had the authority to do so.

In closing - to all who have had such vigorous debate with this issue in the past couple of days - I say this. If you read the above slowly, you will notice the use of the word BELIEVE several times. My feeling is this - my beliefs are mine and yours are yours. You have a right to express them and even to debate them. But you have no right to impose them on my way of life. Death is a personal issue. The way you choose to die may be entirely different from the way I choose to die. Just like the way I choose to live is different. I want people to respect my choices just like I will respect others.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at May 9, 2005 6:26 PM

Quicksilver -

I am sorry - I don't believe it is "tolerant" to expel people from a Church because of a vote.

I am Catholic and was infuriated when Catholic clergy was going to deny John Kerry communion. We are taught - from a very young age - that the clergy represents God - not is God. So who are they to judge? No more qualified than me.

Your points are valid - and always concerns. But I don't think that those problems are going to fixed by the Catholic/Christian/Jewish/Buddist/Moslem faiths.

Abortion - see above

Day care - necessary when one income can't provide. And - I know many nice kids who come from working 2 parent families.

Sex offenders - we had them before. We just know about them more now.

Young people today - parents should be parents and not "best friends".

Yes - we have issues. I can't fix them. But I think my original comment is justified - are we teaching "tolerance" and "acceptance" to our children if we just get rid of people we don't agree with. If we were throwing a black man or a lesbian out of a country club - there would be hell to pay! Why should a church be any different?

Posted by: Blogging Beth at May 9, 2005 6:35 PM

What happened to my post?? I said...Move over Blogging Beth, I am now as clueless as you are. I do not know what you or Leo are referring to regarding things I have said (?). I shall go seek wisdom. Bye bye.

Posted by: mary et. al. at May 10, 2005 12:00 AM

My heart still breaks for Terri and her family. Can you even imagine wanting to care for your loved one, and bearing witness to her slow, torturous death? Not being able to hug her, hold her, be with her when she passes to God. Having police officers in her room to bar her family from getting close to her? What kind of a world do we live in? To this day Michael Schiavo has not disclosed to the family if Terri's ashes are buried or still within his possession. What kind of a sick, psychological head game he is playing against the Schindlers? Throughout various blogs, I continually read about how the "law" was followed. But people don't understand is that the "law of man" was followed, NOT the "law of God". If God's law were followed, the feeding tube would have never been removed. Terri would have died when God was ready to call her home. Maybe this sounds simple and perhaps naive, but I believe in life and I believe no one has the right to end it, only God. We as a nation, are stepping on God's toes and if we continue to follow man's laws and the death goons who go around advocating these atrocities, be afraid, be very afraid.

Posted by: Bella at May 11, 2005 1:22 PM


If you come back to this, and I hope you do, I want to assure you that man's laws were not followed. It took the ignoring of and breaking of many laws to kill Terri. The fact that it was done by a whole gang of cut throats doesn't make it the law. Are you interested in doing something about this? Would you be interested in becoming a prayer warrior?

Posted by: mary et. al. at May 11, 2005 5:17 PM

Absolutely, I believe in the power of prayer. I can't believe how many non-believers there are out there who actually think that this was a good thing to do - to starve this woman to death. That should not be allowed to be done to anyone!! I am Catholic, and I'm not fanatical by any means, but I do believe in the sanctity of life. Bottom line, I can't understand why Michael Schiavo in all good conscience would decide to cut Terri's life short. Her family was willing to care for her until her end. What was the hurry - so he could go on with his life and marry his girlfriend? This had nothing to do with Terri and her so called wishes because if Terri really had made clear her wishes Michael Schiavo would have said so way back in the very beginning when she was brought in the hospital and the docters advised she would not recover. Why did he wait 7 years AFTER he received the lawsuit money? Why tell the courts he wanted to use the money to buy a house for him, Terri, and Terri's family to care for her for as long as she lived? WHAT A LIAR!!! I'm sorry, but this just gets me so peeved that he has actually gotten away with legally murdering his wife.

Posted by: Bella at May 12, 2005 10:11 AM


michael also said he would be a rich man when Terri died. He did cut off all therapy and help for Terri (including antibiotics) as soon as he got the money, probably hoping she would just curl up die. When that took too long he started looking for ways to kill her and I'll bet he begrudged every cent he had to spend to get the job done.

Did you see the Burma Shave ad idea under one of the above articles? Judge Roy Moore said that any endeavor without the acknowledgement of God and our dependence on Him is doomed to failure from the start. That's why I feel so strongly that we prayer warrior groups, plural. And I can't get up even one such group on a blog that had 30-40 people swearing they were going to do something about this. This movement is in trouble.

Posted by: mary et. al. at May 12, 2005 11:51 AM

BB--I've taken a minute and read most of this thread. Probably shouldn't have taken the time, but...

There are too many things you've said for me to disagree with, so I'll just stick to one:

Please, please, please don't do this "PVS-SLASH-brain death" thing. It is _so_ uninformed. I get really just absolutely tired of explaining to people...PVS IS NOT BRAIN DEATH.

If Terri had been brain dead she could not have breathed on her own and her heart would have stopped years ago. She was not dead in *any*, I repeat, *any* medically or legally recognized sense of the word until after 13 days of dehydration. People seem not to know this. And I worry about that. I know, Earl Appleby is attacking the whole notion of brain death. Well, that has its point, though chiefly the problem seems to be that diagnosis is very sticky. But all parties agree that PEOPLE WHO BREATHE ON THEIR OWN ARE NOT BRAIN DEAD. Could we please keep that straight? Because if people keep on saying Terri was "dead" and those in a PVS are "dead," we're gonna get a situation where some federal or state legislature is gonna pass a law according to which when some person is declared in a PVS they can just have their vital organs surgically removed. And if people worry that the diagnosis of "brain death" is fuzzy and difficult, that's _nothin'_ compared to the diagnosis of PVS.

So please, Beth, whatever else you may think or say about Terri's case, could you stop talking as though she was "brain dead"?

Posted by: Lydia at May 13, 2005 1:54 PM

Blogging Beth, it seems that you are a greater fool than I thought, but I am being unkind compared to the response given by Lydia regarding what are stupid comments about brain death. The word "stupid" is a lot better than what is going through my mind at this present time after reading that tripe.

When does death occur? It occurs only when the spirit has passed from this world and into the Eternal (whether that be Eternal Life or Eternal Death). Until that moment, a person is not dead.

It seems to me that you have no understanding with regard to the real meaning of brain death. Terri Schiavo was not brain dead. She was very much alive. When the malpractice trial took place Terri was showing signs of improving. Yet as soon as that scoundrel won that case he stopped all of her therapy. Now we could not have Terri reviving to the point of being able to tell exactly what happened could we? That would mean that it would have become very obvious that Michael Schiavo had lied about Terri's state of health, and that he had no right to win that malpractice lawsuit.

There is a way of knowing when someone is definitely brain dead. It truly does depend upon the vital signs, including the shutdown of the organs of the person.

I have already stated that if someone has died as in the case of my aunt, then I believe that revival is futile. Over twenty-seven years ago, my aunt suffered a major stroke. My parents lived close by and were summoned by my grandmother. They could not get an ambulance to take my aunt to the Royal Melbourne Hospital, and for that reason my parents took her in their car. This happened on my mother's birthday. As they drove the distance to the hospital, my aunt gave a groan, and apparently at that stage she died. When they got to the hospital the emergency staff revived her. This is something that I believe should not happen if the person has stopped breathing. Needless to say, she revived and was placed on life support, and after tests were run it was determined that she was brain dead. The life support, which obviously included the ventilator, was not going to assist my aunt and that meant that a decision was necessary to pull the plug. That decision should have been unnecessary.

There is a critical difference between my aunt's story and that of Terri Schindler. Terri did not stop breathing. She did not "die" before being revivied. She was not brain dead. Her vital signs were always present. There was no sign of her organs breaking down.

When I looked at the sketchy details about little Teron, there was one thing that emerged that meant that he was going to die. Even though he was on a respirator his organs were beginning to break down. That does not mean that he was brain dead. It just means that he was dying and that his body was deteriorating. In the end his parents made the best decision in the circumstances, when they agreed to withdraw the life support. At least his body was not harvested for organ donation.

Organ donation is a critical issue and I am now more firmly against organ donation in most circumstances. There is too much pressure being placed upon families to pull the plug so that organs can be harvested. It must stop.

Posted by: Maggie4life at May 15, 2005 3:04 AM


I am sorry if it seems that I have been unresponsive. During the 6 weeks of my sister's decline before dying, I was feeling very stressed. She had bone cancer and the doctors did not find any other primary source for her cancer.

In the past week I have been to Melbourne for the funeral and have returned home to Sydney. Upon my return to Sydney, I had a fall at the airport car park and sprained my left wrist, as well as doing some form of damage to my right shoulder.

Hopefully, in the weeks to come I will settle once more and give what I can in the way of assistance to the effort to help others.

Posted by: Maggie4life at May 15, 2005 3:11 AM

I was right to wonder if you were alright then. You're good to go, Maggie; as Juleni says a stout soldier. I hope you get in touch with Juleni about the forum and we can really get some work done. I've been a bit under the weather, too, and haven't been doing so much. I will keep doing what I can, though.

Posted by: mary et. al. at May 15, 2005 9:25 AM

Can't help but laugh at how Blogging Beth just stuck her foot in her mouth. She doesn't want anyone telling "her" how to "live" in "her" life but she wants to put in her two inane two cents about Terri's life. rofl

Sorry, couldn't pass that one up. If that is the Beth I am thinking of, I am not one but surprised.

Mark Furman in Sean Hannity's back pocket? rofl
That is another good one. No, BB, Mark Furman is famous for nailing criminals to the wall. If MS is innocent, he has nothing to fear. Just ask the Kennedy relative, Skakel.

Posted by: Shaggy at May 16, 2005 2:31 AM

OOh Shaggy, I just love your sense of humour.

Posted by: Maggie4life at May 16, 2005 6:33 AM