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March 29, 2005

Michael Schiavo and the autopsy scam

Topics: Medical Issues

Just a quick post to ask a couple of "off the cuff" questions.

Michael Schiavo and George Felos now say that they want an autopsy to "prove" the extent of Terri's brain injuries. Can anyone please tell me why a rational person wouldn't have found out for sure through PET and MRI scans before they starved and dehydrated her to death?

A post mortem PET scan is useless, and an MRI after she dies will be of minimal value. Are Michael Schiavo, George Felos, and George Greer also directing the details and the extent of the autopsy by the Pinellas County Medical Examiner like they have everything else so far?

Are we hearing that a full blown autopsy by a known and neutral forensic pathologist is going to do bone scans, and extensive evaluation for abuse? Is Governor "weak knees" Bush going to blink again before the powerful George Greer and the culture of death, by failing to step-in and investigate the murder of Terri Schiavo?

Just a couple of things that I'd like to know - but I bet you can think of a few yourselves.

cross posted at Hyscience

Posted by richard at March 29, 2005 8:48 AM

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I am sure they are trying. According to state law, 872.04. (02), he has to sign to have the autopsy done.

If this goes without due justice for Terri, I am leaving the country.

This is such a very sick and sad case.

Posted by: Julie at March 29, 2005 9:12 AM

Even Doctors and Neurologists don't have more than a "shot in the dark" understanding of our most mysterious 'organ' system in the human body - the brain. For an ME to be able to "determine" the extent of 'brain-damage' is purely a physical concept, as they can do measurements & weights, but cannot ever determine how much the brain's capacity and ability has been hindered. The brain matter is a spongey substance which is able to 'rewire' it's pathways to 'make up' for areas that have been traumatically damaged... this takes time and stimulation, however Terri has only had time (and shows obvious progress in recognition and attempted interaction).

Studies of Hydrocephalus Patients.

Further evidence that brain size is not related to intelligence comes from a report in the prestigious magazine Science, in December, 1980, and more recently from a PBS documentary. These describe the work of Dr. John Lorber, of Sheffield University, England, and others who have used brain scan technologies to study hydrocephalus patients.

A. Hydrocephalus Squeezes the Brain.

Hydrocephalus is commonly called water on the brain. The disease occurs when the fluid filled spaces in the middle of the brain expand due to increased pressure, pressing the brain against the skull. Of the more than 600 individuals examined by Dr. Lorber, about one in ten had more than 90% of the skull volume filled with fluid, and of these more than half of these have IQs over 100.

B. The Man Without a Brain!

One young man examined by Dr. Lorber, who was then a student at Sheffield University, had a measured IQ of 126, a first class honors degree in mathematics; and virtually no brain. This student's brain cortex is a layer about 1/25th of an inch (1 mm) thick, lining his skull. His brain weight is estimated to be about 2/10 of one pound (about 0.090 kg). That is only about 7% of normal brain weight. This student is one of many normal persons with almost no brain.
Clearly these observational facts show that intelligence and brain size are not related.
In the spring of 1979 a 26 year old student at the University of Sheffield in the United Kingdom walked into the university doctor's office with complaints of a cold.

The doctor on staff noticed that the student, who held a first-class honours degree in mathematics, was rather normal except he had a slightly larger than average head. Curious, the doctor sent the student to James Lorber who was part of a world-leading spinal surgery team at Sheffield Children's Hospital.

What Dr. Lorber found was almost unbelievable!

The student, with a reported IQ of 126 had no signs of any mental deficiency. Yet, when Dr. Lorber X-rayed the student's head he discovered he had almost no brain tissue to speak of. His head was filled with fluid. What little brain matter he had was crushed against his spinal cord, a measly few millimeters thick rather than the typical CENTI-meters.

This condition is called hydrocephalus. It results when cerebral fluid expands and fills the brain causing the cortex to be squashed against the inside of the skull.

There have been many other reported cases where normal functioning people have been found to have virtually no brain matter.

In this particular case Lorber calculated the man's entire brain weighed about 100 grams compared to the average adult brain weighing 1500 grams. 100 grams is little more than the average weight of a dog's brain and this from an honours student in mathematics!

Let's pause and think about this for a moment. How many dogs do you know who have an honours degree in mathematics? Can't think of any? Neither can I. How was the student capable of functioning on the level that he was?

Lorber asked himself a similar question and it begged him to wonder whether the brain was even necessary at all. In 1980 the journal Science headlined with the discovery and the rest is history

http://www.wordless.com/CGI/article.asp?ArticleId=26 [OR]

Posted by: Raquel at March 29, 2005 9:15 AM

I think the alleged autopsy is just a way to get her body out of there quickly, so they can cremate her. Of course it makes more sense to test someone while she's alive.

Felos and Schiavo are so scared, they'll just say anything. They know they're busted, and it's just a matter of time now.

Whether Terri lives or dies-------and, we're going to keep fighting for her to live, as she is fighting to live------it's still just a matter of time for them.

The whole world is watching them now, and there's really nothing left for them to say or do, except make up more phony, stupid, pathetic lies. They don't even know what they're saying anymore.

The American people are honest, benevolent, and just.

Posted by: Huntgoddess at March 29, 2005 9:21 AM

I think it would not look good in
" Mr.Schiavo's " book,if he
objected to an autopsy.
Which would be done whether he
wanted it or not,they knew this
would happen if it went this far.
His Attorney is good PR.
I think both "Bushes" know this
is the beginning of something most
people would not have chosen previously.
It will creep up on the general public,
but they KNOW.That there would be
a huge demand for a proximate autopsy
was known,Felos had planned their response
well in advance.Be sure of that.
Terri is Alive

Posted by: lynaqua at March 29, 2005 9:28 AM

Raquel, thank you so much for that excellent post, with the links to other resources.

When I started my post, yours wasn't up there yet. I didn't see it until after, or else I would have responded before.

This is excellent. I'm always looking for that kind of information.

It's disgusting, the way Terry has been exposed and violated in public, by people discussing cooly----supposedly "scientifically" and "objectively"---about what her brain is like. They objectify, degrade and dehumanize her like that, by doing that. It's just sick. They are the ones who need to have their heads examined.

Posted by: Huntgoddess at March 29, 2005 9:28 AM

Thank you, lynagua.

Posted by: Huntgoddess at March 29, 2005 9:30 AM

Dr. Nordin,

Since you didn't catch the hospice angle right off, I got to wondering if you caught the refusal of oral feeding, which forced Terri on the feeding tube until everything was put in place for "the LAW is that she will die". On the face of it her tube was pulled, but in reality she is being executed. That's not even a fine line; more of a sleight of hand.

Good morning, Huntgoddess, et. al. I hope we can get a grip on something today and start going places. Time is wasting. And thank you to whoever contacted Beth for me. Mission accomplished.

Posted by: mary et. al. at March 29, 2005 9:46 AM

According to my medical dictionary (Stedman's 22nd edition) the definition of an autopsy is an examination to determine the cause of death. If Terri dies, the perdict of an autopsy will likely be 'death from the effects of dehydration of starvation'; not very helpful. It's extremely unlikely that an autopsy will uncover past physicial traumas. What does Michael have to lose by looking like the good guy and allowing an autopsy to take place? What does Michael have to gain by looking like the good guy and allowing an autopsy to take place?
Please get this information out to all the television, radio and newspaper stations.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 9:53 AM

I heard on one of the news stations last night that the autopsy was going to only be done on the brain to see the extent of the brain damage. I got the impression there weren't going to bother with the rest of the body.

Posted by: SoCalAngel at March 29, 2005 10:02 AM

If anyone can confirm conclusively the extent of the autopsy (whether it will just be on the brain, or a full autopsy... we seem to have some conflicting reports so far) please post. Thanks!

Posted by: Foug at March 29, 2005 10:14 AM

Additional information on autopsy vs determination of the state of the brain taken from www.1800autopsy.com.....

"10. Can a cranial autopsy be performed?

There is much confusion with this statement. There is no such thing as a cranial autopsy because an autopsy is to determine the cause of death. What the family is requesting is a neurological diagnosis whereupon the brain is procured and delivered to a Board Certified forensic neuropathologist. A complete detailed report takes about sixteen weeks."

my note: so, in order to determine the condition of the brain, it is not enough that it is examined by a pathologist, it has to go to a board certified forensic pathologist. With all due respect to the Pinellas County medical examiner Dr. Jon Thogmartin, I do not feel he is qualified to do a neurological exam on a brain.

While is disgusts me to have to think and talk on this subject, it is unfortuneately a necessary evil in order to keep on top of the misinformation Felos is spreading to the media.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 10:14 AM

Investigative Group To Expose Schiavo’s Lawyer’s “Voices”

Will Present Evidence Of Perjury And Conflict of Interest

by Trimelda C. McDaniels

Shadow Road Consultations and Investigations

George Felos is not just a lawyer for Michael Schiavo in the Terri Schiavo “right to die” case. He heads a religious organization that believes death by dehydration and starvation is a religious solution for the severely disabled. Felos knows this because he hears voices that tell him when someone wants to die this way and this is his gift as an agent of God.

This information comes from Shadow Rose, a small non-profit investigative group incorporated in Idaho that focuses on domestic violence and sexual abuse. The head of the organization, Trimelda C. McDaniels, found this information in Mr. Felos’ book, “Litigation As Spiritual Practice," (Blue Dolphin Publishing –2002) and feels that his role as a lawyer in the Schiavo case is based upon his religious beliefs that the removal of feeding tubes from the disabled are a form of profound, religious expression.

“Felos clearly states that he hears voices in his head that tell him when someone wants to die this way,” Mc Daniels said. “ He is adamant about being used by God to help people out of their bodies into the next world by removal of feeding tubes and even ‘willing’ them to die with his mind.”

She quotes from Mr. Felos’ own words in “Litigation As Spiritual Practice:”

“As Mrs. Browning lay motionless before my gaze, I suddenly heard a loud, deep moan, scream, and wondered if the nursing home personnel heard it and would respond to the unfortunate resident In the next moment, as this cry of pain and torment continued, I realized it was Mrs. Browning. I felt the mid-section of my body open and noticed a strange quality to the light in the room. I sensed her soul in agony. As she screamed I heard her say, in confusion, ‘Why am I still here … why am I here?’ My soul touched hers and in some way, I communicated that she was still locked in her body. I promised I would do everything in my power to gain the release her soul cried for. With that the screaming immediately stopped. I felt like I was back in my head again, the room resumed its normal appearance, and Mrs. Browning, as she had throughout this experience, lay silent. “I knew without a doubt what had transpired was real and dispelled the thought as intellect’s attempt to assert its own version of reality.” (73)

“I felt like an empty vessel, a vehicle through which Spirit does its own work. I felt deep gratitude for being endowed with the abilities that allow this work to be done through me. In a sense, I lost, at least for that moment, a personal agenda. I became an agent and God was the principal. All I needed to do was permit the work to come through me.”

The argument that Terri Schiavo stated “she wouldn’t want to live this way,” is based upon Felos’ own religious beliefs, not Mrs. Schiavo’s, ” Ms. McDaniels said. “Mr. Felos feels that God created him to bring death to the sick and disabled as a way of helping them reincarnate on a higher level. He says he is an "agent" of God who champions death,’ and I believe that Michael Schiavo shares these same views.”

“When did Terri join Mr. Felos’ religion? The last I heard she was a practicing Roman Catholic, “ said McDaniels

“If Mr. Felos wants to believe and even teach this as the ordained minister that he is in his church, he certainly has the right to do so,” McDaniels said. “I am a minister myself and I champion the rights of religious freedom. I am sure many other people believe that they have God like powers and have voices that guide them. They might even believe that death by starvation is an act of holiness. But, this belief becomes a problem when this person represents himself as speaking for Terri Schiavo. Is that really what she said, or is this one of Mr. Felos’ ‘voices’? How can you trust this kind of bias?” she asked.

It also doesn’t help that Mr. Felos is on the board of the hospital that supports the hospice where Terri Schivao is being held, McDaniels said. “Just those two facts alone-his religious teachings and practices concerning feeding tubes and his former relationship with the hospice should be enough to totally disregard anything he or his client, Michael Schiavo have to say about ‘what Terri wanted.’”

Ms. McDaniels stated that her organization intends to formally pursue criminal charges against both Mr. Schiavo and Mr. Felos, regardless of the outcome in the fight to save Terri Schiavo’s life.

““There was enough evidence of abuse for the Department of Children and Family Services in Florida to step in and file motions to have Terri Schiavo’s case investigated,” McDaniels said.

“They have tried to examine her abuse before and after Mrs. Schiavo’s hospitalization. Judge Greer, the judicial power in this matter has blocked them every time. He has also tried to stop the Justice Department and the United States Congress from being able to examine the bone scans and other evidence of abuse. It is time for the public to ask why he’s stonewalling and to separate Felos and Mr. Schiavo from their civil covering that Judge Greer has afforded them up to this point.”

“We will do everything we can to see that justice is done. The only way to do that is to re-examine Mrs. Schiavo in person or after death for signs of physical abuse. McDaniels said. “This is a case of domestic violence and abuse, not a right to die. Mr. Felos’ “voices” need to be examined in the clear light of day. Therefore, we intend to offer Mr. Felos’ book as evidence for disbarment and arrest on charges of perjury and other legal matters to The Congress of the United States this coming week.”

For further information, please call (208) 589-5230

From Spirit Daily www.spiritdaily.com

I just thought this was really BIZARRE and had to be shared....

Posted by: phillycatholic at March 29, 2005 10:15 AM

correction to my note above from 10:14a:

my note: so in order to determine the condition of the brain, it is not enough that it is examined by a pathologist, it has to go to a 'board certified foresenic pathologist'.... this should have read: board certified forensic NEUROpathologist".

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 10:21 AM

Many patients change their minds about their living wills. Here are questions suggested by a psychiatrist to ask Terri or those in similar conditions, watching for subtle differences of movement or facial expression:

Are you thirsty?
Do you want a drink?
Do you want the feeding tube to give you water and food?
Do you want us to keep food and water away from you?
Do you want the feeding tube kept out?
Do you want us to let you die?

The issue is not whether she can say what she wants. It’s whether she can understand what she wants and, possibly, communicate that in some way. This psychiatrist has seen several patients in the hospital who changed their minds about a living will. One of the most dramatic cases was a confused woman on a ventilator with a typical living will. Over twenty to thirty minutes the psychiatrist determined she did not want life support removed. Leaving the hospital for a nursing home seven months later, clear-headed and in good spirits, but still on a ventilator, she said “This has been a wonderful experience. The people have become wonderful friends.” People can’t really know what they’re signing for with a living will. That’s even truer for the verbal comments people make.

Posted by: AndyS at March 29, 2005 10:21 AM

Just for the record, the autopsy will be preformed by the state medical examiner for Pinellas and Pasco counties, Jon Thogmartin. I've read some posts denigrating Pinellas officials (which, sorry, but if you don't live here you really don't know what happens), and I just want it to be clear that the ME is under the state's authority, not the county's.
Source: http://sptimes.com/2005/03/29/Tampabay/Father___Still_fighti.shtml

Posted by: Becky at March 29, 2005 10:23 AM

I'm sorry, this may make me a troll, but I have to say something here...

What is it that you all really want? I know the objective is that she stay's alive, unfortunately I'm not sure that's going to happen. Then everyone is calling MS a monster because he supposedly wants to cremate her without an autopsy. So we all demand that an autopsy is down, and now the lawyer says absolutely there will be an autopsy, and now you all are crying monster again. MS is doing what everyone here has asked him to do, and there are still problems.

That's why trolls have come into this site. They are picking apart your arguement, because you want it both ways. Cut the guy a little slack for wanting the autopsy completed. It's just like the postings about how the judges are all devils who are going to hell. If they had ruled in your favor, they would be saints.

Make up your mind, and realize you are not going to win people over with these circular arguements. You demanded an autopsy, and you got it. You got your wish, so maybe it's time to cut MS a little slack!

Posted by: Sarah B at March 29, 2005 10:27 AM

Becky, he is a board certified foresenic NEUROpathologist? If not, he's not qualified to make an accurate diagnosis of Terri's brain.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 10:30 AM

Sarah B: could you please read my comments to you that I posted yesterday? Thanks.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 10:33 AM

Sarah B sounds just like someone else yesterday -- and sorry, MS doesn't deserve any slack. If you had read everything there is to know about Terri you would realize where we're coming from.

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 10:42 AM

And I agree with Hyscience on this... if Michael REALLY cared about the condition of her brain, he would have had a PET scan and a MRI done BEFORE he pulled out her feeding tube...

Does he think we're stupid or something? Sheesh!

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 10:45 AM

This is such a crock on the part of George Felos.

If he wanted to "prove" Terri is PVS, then have a scan NOW.

You know and I know an autopsy isn't going to prove anything one way or the other. This is designed to cover his rotten client's rear end and shut up the pro-Terri faction.

Posted by: Susan Nunes at March 29, 2005 10:55 AM

As with most of the decisions surrounding this case, I think I can state for all of us supporting Terri that we are hoping for a fair, unbiased, factual review. She has received little of that so far. Is it too much to ask for in the final review of her body?

Posted by: I hope at March 29, 2005 10:57 AM

Susan Nunes - I agree! The Pro-Terri crowd is loud and causing a stir. I think Michael had a little twinge of fear that if he didn't say he wanted an autopsy, that people would start questioning why. Now that he says he does, he's trying to seem more "human". Although their reasons for the autopsy sound ridiculous to me ('to see the extent of the brain damage Terri had'). They could care less.

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 10:59 AM

Becky and Sarah, I would be curious to know if you are involved in the church of Scientology? It's ok if you are or aren't, but I am just curious.

Posted by: juleni at March 29, 2005 11:00 AM

Sarah - Amen sister! Imagine the "spin" that we would have if MS would have a change of heart and reinsert the tube. Or if Satan Jeb would get some guts and snatch TS.

And I am not affiliated with the Church of Scientology. I am a practicing Catholic.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at March 29, 2005 11:09 AM

Actually I am the devil in human flesh, because I'm not religious at all!! In fact my feeling is that you don't have to go to church (a man made phenom) in order to live a righteous life. I believe that as long as I'm am following in God and Jesus' name, there is no need for me to belong to a church. Besides I found out the Catholics don't want me because I am pro-choice.

That's not the heart and soul of the matter though. I'm not trying to stir any body up. I just want you to realize that you got what you wanted originally. There will be an autopsy, but you aren't satisfied with that either. I don't know that there is anything that would make you happy at this point.

And to Anna, sorry about the generalization, however it is hard not to when people have labled me without hearing what I'm really saying. I'm not suggesting either way that the tube should or should not be reinserted. I think we should all find peace in the fact that there will be an autopsy and move on from there. I don't think there should be an ugly spin on the situation.

Posted by: Sarah B at March 29, 2005 11:16 AM

Sarah, Beth, etc-- With all the possible cover-ups in the ring of Schiavo, Greer, Felos, etc. I think people here just want to make sure an autopsy is going to be a legitimate one. I personally think it's weird that MS suddenly changed his mind regarding the autopsy, and I'd like to see a neutral party involved in the autopsy. I hope a legitimate autopsy will answer any questions once and for all. I do think it's ridiculous that they're checking the extent of Terri's brain damage AFTER her death instead of doing the appropriate medical examinations while she's living, though!

Posted by: Foug at March 29, 2005 11:18 AM

Does anyone know about the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin? He will be performing the autopsy if Terri passes.

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 11:19 AM


The ME is going to give a legitimate autopsy. S/he is a neutral party, not affiliated with either side of the case. S/he does not care about the legal precedings behind the case, and will do his/her job putting aside any biases. That's his/her job, otherwise s'he risks losing his/her license. It isn't going to be a doctor appointed by either Schiavo or the Schindlers. It is a county appointed ME, and whether anyone believes it or not, in general Pinellas County does not stand on either side of the fence here, they are a neutral party. That's why people should be happy that an autopsy will occur.

Posted by: Sarah B at March 29, 2005 11:22 AM

I still have my reservations. ;-(

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 11:24 AM

A full body autopsy might be useless in this case. I'm not sure that anyone would take any x-rays b/c that's not necessarily the standard procedure in an autopsy. Without x-rays there will be no signs of past abuse in that autopsys don't dissect down to the bone. They may be able to detect something in the rib cage--I'm unsure.

So the only purpose of this autopsy would be to determine the cause of the brain injury. This will be done by examining the brain both grossly and microscopically. You won't need a certified "neuropathologist" to do this--a standard forensic pathologist should be able to determine the difference between brain tissue dead from hypoxia versus brain tissue dead from trauma (they look different).

As for the hydrocephalus issue if Terri's is caused by hypoxic brain injury then the hydrocephalus is not caused by an increase in pressure. It's probably hydrocephalus ex vacuo which occurs when brain tissue essentially "shrinks" allowing the ventricles to expand and take up the lost space. So draining the fluid won't cause the brain to expand--it'll probably just cause the production of more fluid. All of this is, of course, dependent on the type of brain injury.

I believe her injuries are as reported--hypoxia. Others do not, I suppose.

Posted by: Jeremy at March 29, 2005 11:31 AM

In the state of Florida, it is up to the medical examiner whenever there is a cremation. It is already law and there is nothing Michael or his lawyer could do about it. He did not request it, he learned this was one thing he did not control.
Felos came out and made it look like Michael was making some grand gesture. They should not have called the medical examiner, it makes it look bad since there is so much corruption going on in the Pinellas county government. I live in Florida and all cremations are subject to the medical examiners discretion for autopsy. I suspect Michael did not realize this until it became an issue in the news.

Posted by: MichelleB at March 29, 2005 11:32 AM

"PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo's husband has asked that an autopsy be performed on his wife after she dies so that a full report can be done on the extent of her brain damage, an attorney for Michael Schiavo said Monday."

CLARIFICATION: An autopsy is done to prove the cause of death; if Terri dies the cause will likely be listed as 'death from the effects of starvation and dehydration'. If cerebral exam is desired to determine the state of Terri's brain, it must be performed by a board certified forensic neuropathologist and is really not part of an autopsy per se. The office of the Pinnellas medical examiner (Dr. Thogmartin) has agreed to performed the autopsy but his office declines comment as to whether or not Dr. Thogmartin has the qualifications necessary to due a cerebral examination.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 11:32 AM

Anna, where are you getting that?

A brain autopsy is performed in almost every autopsy (I think there are a few limited exceptions to which this case wouldn't belong). The will extract the brain, examine it grossly, and then make a few microscope slides to examine. It will be part of the exam--and any forensic pathologist should be able to do that (or else they wouldn't have a job).

Posted by: Jeremy at March 29, 2005 11:40 AM

It's easy to say all those things, Sarah. My point is, we've seen so much pointing to a conspiracy. It will make people feel better to have a neutral party observing to satisfy all parties. I'm not saying the ME is involved in any conspiracy. I'm trying to make the point that as people can't seem to trust the MS side, that it would be nice to have someone from the Schindler side appointed to observe.
Finally, I want to add that despite what people are SUPPOSED to do, many are corrupt and will do what they want to do instead. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to worry about lies, files thrown away, altered documents, etc.
It's not a perfect world.
Thus-- the reservations.
That is all.

Posted by: Foug at March 29, 2005 11:42 AM

Julie, please don't leave the country. Where would you go? Euthanasia has even more of a hold in Europe than it has here.
Besides, we need to stick together in order to fight this first step down the slippery slope.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 29, 2005 11:43 AM

Jeremy, I believe an autopsy is performed to determine the cause of death, not the cause of brain injury. How do you come arrive at the opinion that the only purpose of the autopsy would be to determine the cause of the brain injury? Please explain how and why you feel it is necessary to determine the cause of the brain damage, be it from hypoxia or trauma or other. I might learn something here.

Having a board certified forensic neuropathologist do a cerebral examination, is just standard forsenic protocol, per a medical examiner's statement. I agree with you that Dr. Thogmartin COULD perform this, there is nothing stopping him legally, but his diagnosis wouldn't be as reliable and might be considered unreliable in some professional circles if he doesn't have the highest qualifications to do it.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 11:52 AM

Selfish, you're incorrect. I do expect a feasible explanation for the broken bones and neck injury when Terri was first admitted; I will accept the autopsy results. Will it change my mind about MS? No, I'm always going to think he's a lying ass-- after all, as soon as he received the malpractice money he conveniently forgot his emotional pledge to spend the rest of his life providing Terri with love, care, therapy, etc. That is sick. And, I'll always disagree what Judge Greer constitutes as clarity as to what Terri wanted.

Posted by: Foug at March 29, 2005 11:54 AM

SS.. you should now by now that most of us feel an injustice has been done to Terri and the Schindlers. Of course, we're going to have our suspicions about this, as with anything else going on with Terri. There has been corruption and twisting of the facts from the start. Why should now be any different?

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 11:54 AM

Foug - I agree.

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 11:56 AM

You're talking about a brain autopsy, I'm referring to a cerebral examination, Jeremy. We're talking about two different things.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 11:56 AM

It is a sign of independent critical thinking when one continues to investigate and receive new information, which may result in changing one's previous position or view of a situation.

Posted by: democrat at March 29, 2005 11:57 AM

*sigh* Sadly Selfish.. again, this a support group for Terri's supporters... why are you here?

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 12:01 PM

The last I heard the wording was a little different-this came from Hannity-the medical examiner by law has to diagnose the manner of death and that COULD include an autopsy. My feeling is that Michael ordering an autopsy is just a way to get people off his back for a few days-in the end he will more than likely say never mind. Saying that he has ordered an autopsy before she is dead-is that even allowed? "Hi, I am calling to order an autopsy for my wife she will be dead soon" I think it is important to keep up the efforts of slamming the medical examiner with phone calls just in case-I however am still praying for a miracle.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 12:01 PM

I am sorry but I am laughing so hard at that comment about Michael giving all the money away to Terris favorite charity-isnt his biggest claim that the money is all gone?

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 12:04 PM

"Euthanasia has even more of a hold in Europe than it has here."

True. But in the Netherlands, for example, where as many as 92% of the people support euthanasia, it IS NOT allowed without the consent of theperson to be killed: The Dutch wishing to die must “consistently, repeatedly and lucidly” make requests for euthanasia and then are required to express these wishes to an independently chosen doctor who must concur.

However, even with these precautions in place it is still possible that doctors could falsely claim patients requested euthanasia. If such concerns seem far-fetched, it is worth noting that the Journal of the American Medical Association, in consultation with Dutch physicians, found that "no request for death was made by the patient" in a very large number of so-called euthanasia cases in Holland between 1990 and 1995.

Posted by: democrat at March 29, 2005 12:05 PM

Thank you MichelleB. I stated that very thing in the Jesse Jackson thread. Isn't it funny that the only news organization stating the same is Fox. All others are letting it stand that MS is the one who decided on the autopsy. Felos is a freak and should be disbarred. In fact, on Saturday, when he gave his "beautiful" speech he was asked about his being able to hear dying people speak in his head, he said that he didn't think the public was interested in his mytiphysical beliefs. Hmmm, he needs to be investigated. I suspect he has been responsible for many people dying this way.

Posted by: imtoast at March 29, 2005 12:05 PM

I know the autopsy attempts to find the "cause of death"...but it has multiple roles.

I've seen them done, live and in color, and those performing the autopsy look everywhere. If I'm not mistaken, the autopsy report may list the cause of death as dehydration, BUT all other findings should be reported. It's not as if the pathologist walks in, looks at the body, says, "yup, dehydration" and moves on. They examine will remove the organs and weigh them. They will report any major abnormalities. They will examine tissues microscopically.

Now, the final report that the public sees may very well say "dehydration"--and that's it. But there will be more info taken than simply saying she died of dehydration.

Anna, what in the world is a cerebral examination if not an autopsy of the brain?

Posted by: Jeremy at March 29, 2005 12:06 PM

The only money it's about, in my opinion, is the money he received in the malpractice suit was SUPPOSED to be used to take care of Terri. That is, her care, her rehabilitations, her therapies. Michael Schiavo didn't use any of the money for Terri. He got the money and "gave up" on her. Within three months of that emotional plea.

In regard to the Schindlers-- Last I knew, you could try to talk when your lips are bleeding. Last I knew, the Schindlers were worried the morphine might hasten her death, thus striking out any attempts in progress to save her. Yes, they disagree with their attorney's prognosis. Does that mean they are lying? No, it means they disagree with their lawyer's prognosis.

As to the soft music and flowers, that's been reported in general and I don't see its relevence to your point. They're working to try to save Terri's life-- why would they concentrate on flowers in her room? They haven't given up, so of course they're not going to waste time saying, "Oh, Terri's room is really pretty." They're going to say, "Damn it, someone PLEASE save our daughter because she's dying by inches here!"

Posted by: Foug at March 29, 2005 12:07 PM

And yeah, we heard about the flowers and the music playing. Seranade for starvation... how sweet and loving. I want to throw up.

Where was all of that when she was held as a prisoner in that hospice without sunshine, cards, posters? How loving was Michael when he refused to fix her wheel chair that has been broken for years now? How loving was Michael when he refused to allow Terri to have dental exams, so she had to have 4 teeth pulled out? How loving was Michael when he refused to give her anti-biotics for a urinary tract infection? How loving was it that Michael refused to let the Schindlers see Terri's medical records, until they were just opened up a few years ago? How loving was it that he melted down his wedding ring and Terri's wedding ring after her accident to have a new ring made for him? How loving is it that he chose to have Terri's cats euthanized when her parents said they'd keep them for her? How loving is it that Michael decides to move on with his life and have more than one affair and then become "engaged" to another woman and have children with her while he's still legally married to Terri?

I'm tired of the rhetoric. You keep telling me this is a loving man. Terri NEVER made her wishes known and Michael's actions speak much more loud than his words. He has the actions of a man who DOES NOT CARE.

I am starting to believe that you just be one of Michael's friends, because you continuously want to sing Michael's praises.

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 12:09 PM

I have been informed that a sample letter I posted re: autopsies may contain an unintentional error. Though the information was reported to me by another physician, it appears it may not be the case that the *present* attending physician has 5 NPDB reported malpractice cases. Since I cannot confirm this data, it would be best that this phrase not be included in any further communications regarding autopsies for now. Since the purpose of including this was to convince Dr. Thogmartin to act 2 weeks ago, and it is now determined that action will take place, that particular element of the letter is no longer revelant.

Posted by: Robert W. Smith MD at March 29, 2005 12:13 PM

Jeremy, I before I continue, I just want to point out one thing. My motive here is to find the truth and get it out to the readers, to the other public, to the media, so everyone can have the entire behind the scenes information. The intention in my dialogue with you is to potentially learn and understand more than I do at the present time. I'm concerned that our dialogue is becoming a battle of egos or who's smarter or who knows more. I do have a comment in response to your past post of 12:06. If and when we can reach some type of satisfactory agreement about where we're going with our dialogue and why, then I'll continue. In the meantime, please answer the obvious question. Do you feel it was right to have removed Terri's feeding tube?

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 12:18 PM

Sadly selfish
You do have a right to say what you believe-this is America, it is what makes this country so great. However, you of all people being so hell bent on protecting your rights should be quite concerned if we as a nation are going to start deciding who is worthy of living and who is not-that is what this has come down too because no one-not one of us in this lifetime will ever know what she really said - there is too much in dispute. On one saide you have a family who loves her desperately and on the other you have a husband who claims to love her so much that has two children with someone he calls a fiancee. It has come down to the fact that in the eyes of the law Terri Shiavo is not worthy of living. That should scare you -that should scare all of us who hold our freedom dear.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 12:21 PM


If I say yes...will I get ignored or something?

I'm honestly curious as to how a "cerebral exam" is different from examining the brain post mortem. Is there something that I don't know? I'm asking without some sort of ulterior motive.

This I know: they will remove the brain, a slice it into sections--then will take samples and examine microscopically (a neuorpathologist could very well be the person looking through the scope). To me...that's a cerebral exam (i.e. examination of the brain).

I don't know what else there is to do? Is there something I'm missing?

I suppose the point of my posts is to try to ensure anyone reading that a thorough examination will/should be done--and that a standard autopsy will/should include an examination both grossly and microscopically of the brain.

Posted by: Jeremy at March 29, 2005 12:25 PM

Throughout all of this I would have had a much easier time siding with the parents if they hadn't been so adamant declaring that even if Terri had clearly indicated a wish to not live on they'd never honour it.

Neither side comes out clean here and despite any misgivens you might have about it, it's understandable under the circumstances.

You can accuse the parents of overstating things, but in the end it's their daughter that's dieing and they're watching her die right now.
Most of if not all of us would say or overstate things in the hopes of getting someone to do something, even if you know it's unlikely, in the same situation.

I don't necessarily agree, but I can feel for what they're currently going through and won't critize them for anything they say. Especially now, it's the cheap thing to do.

This is a site for the support of Terri's right to live and from what I've seen, differing opinions aren't generally shunned but it's still necessary to try as much as possibly to make your opposing view as politely and as respectfully as you can.
(No need to flame me for this since I'm sure I stepped over the line as well. It's hard to remain composed with something like this)

Anna Nordin: assuming someone isn't just being cruel, people who don't oppose having the feeding tube removed (or argue that the right to have it happen should be there) feel that way because they see Terri's condition as hopeless and don't believe there is any consciousness left for therapy to work with. It's not enough to just ask if someone thinks it was right to have it removed.

(Completely random note: someone here was having problems with posting comments because she kept getting a notice saying she wasn't signed in. I had the same problem so now I just type my comment in notepad first, and then copy and paste the whole thing in. Also, rightclicking on the "sign in" link and opening it in a new window seems to work better for me for some reaosn)

Posted by: Vanessa at March 29, 2005 12:56 PM

Am i signed in?

Posted by: mary et. al. at March 29, 2005 1:04 PM

To sign in... type in your stuff and it will take you back here. Just hit the "refresh" key on your browser and then the comment box will pop up at the bottom... you just need to refresh.

Posted by: Sirena at March 29, 2005 1:08 PM

They are talking about this on LInda Vestor with Michael Baudin right now-interesting questions coming out

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 1:17 PM

Sorry about that, but this thing has wiped my comments out to many times and made me re-write.

BLOGGINGBETH AND SARAHB, please read this. I posted it in another comment section earlier, so I'm not going to go the full route here. But I summed it up by saying that the one and only thing that ms has been consistent in is BAD FAITH. Are you suggesting he has changed his spots? We are as we are because we realize the sneaky, shifty nature of this critter. Correction on my earlier comment: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

That said and I hope well received, I need to address Dr. Nordin's concern that we are getting nowhere fast.

Either we are in pursuit of the truth (not opinions) and dedicating ourselves to the destruction of the lies which will destroy us all eventually, or we are wasting our time. Whatever our views now, if we are people of good will, we can agree that the truth should be discovered and then our opinions won't be opinions any more.

To that end, can we set up something where we can put proven fact up for everyone to see in one spot and proven lies in another place, all with proofs in place?

We must take the first step on this journey, or we will be milling around talking about it instead. I will continue to cast my vote with the True Judge, who's verdict I WILL accept, but I will no longer hassle the authorities, who would have done something already if they were going to. There is much to be investigated here and shifted to one pile or the other. I, for one, would like to know more about ms' background, family life and family for there is often indicators there which stand up in court.

Posted by: mary et. al. at March 29, 2005 1:19 PM

Did somebody say that Micheal and Felos already met Dr. Thorgmartin 2 weeks before her feeding tube was pulled out? Are they already making plans for an Autospy and for her Cremation? If that is the case, that shows guilt.

I have a question though regarding Life Insurance Policy, since the Autospy has to declare the cause of Death which is obviously death by starvation and hydration but Does the Life Insurance Policy has rules about Starvation? Does that resemble Suicide or Murder? Because I know for sure the Life Insurance Co. won't release Money to the Client if it was a Suicide or Murder as the Cause for Death with Starvation and hydration. Does anybody know the Life Insurance Rules? I know the Life Insurance would be voided if it was Suicide, and if it was Murder by somebody else, it can be given, but not Murder by its own client, is that right? Is that convienent that Micheal has his own Judge, his own Lawyer, his own Medical Examiner even his own Religious Leaders to speak the same wave length as his. He has a Possessive Control and a Big Ego controlling everybody and also controls the Medical Examiner? Would that be a violation of Ethics if the Medical Examiner receives money from Micheal and lies under oath? Everybody should be disbarred: Felos, Greer, Jeb Bush, Medical Examiner. Jeb Bush is not doing anything since he has a Supreme Power so he is involved in Micheal's Cesspool. Of course, Micheal knew right from the start that it requires an Autospy. His Lawyer Felos is not that stupid and probably "told" Micheal if he wants Cremation, Autospy would have to be called for. How convienent that Felos "suggests" that Micheal wants one. Right now? or After? Which one? It really contradicts the decision of Judge Greer. Pretty nice word "Suggests", shifting the blame on Micheal. What Agenda did Judge Greer has with Micheal? Perhaps the same thoughts? The call for Autospy is a cause of suspicion on the part of Micheal.

Posted by: momforGod at March 29, 2005 1:40 PM

O.K. Jeremy, a general or anatomic pathologist (which I suspect you may be) exams all the organs and tissues, etc including the brain, to determine the cause of death and to observe and record their general state and appearance (autopsy). Whenever there is a major brain or spinal cord issue, a neuropathologist is (or should be) called in according to appropriate medical protocol to do more detailed and extensive examination of the CNS. This is the 'cerebral exam' I'm referring to; it ensures that an adequate and appropriate amounts and areas of the CNS are examined and studied to ensure an accurate diagnosis and assessment. A neuropathologist is trained and examined to show he or she is able to do this as opposed to an anatomic pathologist who is not. Your "this I know" statements are speculative until or unless the events actually come to pass and only then will become facts. Even in your speculation, you do not express certainty that a neuropathologist will be involved, nor do you even make it clear whether you feel one is necessary.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 1:41 PM


Try typing your comment in notepad or somewhere else and then just copy the whole thing there.
Then in the comment box, you can rightclick and paste everything back in.

If it didn't submit, then at least you didn't loose all you wrote and you can just paste it back and try again.

Posted by: Vanessa at March 29, 2005 1:44 PM


Independent Medical Examiner Must Attend Schiavo Autopsy;
Web of Deception Extends Into FDLE Commission
© The Empire Journal

After years of refusing an autopsy upon the death of Terri Schindler-Schiavo, suddenly the attorney for Michael Schiavo has announced that Dr. Jon Thogmartin, medical examiner for Pinellas/Pasco Counties, District 6, will conduct an autopsy to attempt to dispel rumors of criminal wrongdoing in the case.


Posted by: Raquel at March 29, 2005 1:46 PM

Ok, let me understand this: Micheal wants an Autospy to determine the extent of her Brain Damage but didn't he know that it would show nothingness in there and that it would be shrunk? Oh yea, he probably knew that...That is why he is refusing Tests BEFORE Her death. Such a nice timing, eh?

It really contradicts Micheal in the very least...Refusal for tests BEFORE her death, then wants one AFTER HER death?

Posted by: momforGod at March 29, 2005 1:52 PM


lol...thanks for thinking I'm a doc...but I'm not quite a doc--just a med student (2nd year for what it's worth).

We're on the same page. I figured we were.

As it stands in my hosptial/county/school in South Carolina (as informed by a prof of mine):

"Oh - it depends on what kind of autopsy is performed as to whether or not the brain will be examined. On medical examiner/coroner cases, all the organs are looked at. On medical autopsies (permission granted by the family and jurisdiction turned down by the ME), the family can limit the autopsy to certain areas of the body if they like."

So I think I see where your concern is. You're worried that this won't be an ME case (I don't know if it is or isn't)? And thus a limited autopsy?

The same prof (a forensic pathologist) also said:

"One can certainly utilize a neuropathologist, but many forensic pathologists will examine the brain themselves (for example, being treated by a family physician generalist vs. a specialized cardiologist)."

Sounds like a turf war. As for my feelings that a neuropathologist should be involved---I'll avoid the question (read: I have zero experience in making that determination)

At any rate, I now understand what your concern is.

Thanks for helping clear it up!

Posted by: Jeremy at March 29, 2005 1:59 PM

Thank you, Vanessa, I will try that if my daughter will show me how. I'm the log cabin type when it comes to computers. Thank you all for your suggestions. But this thing cheats.

Now would you all PLEASE help me out with my last posted suggestion or we're going to lose Dr. Nordin and perhaps others right along with all the time and energy we're losing.


Posted by: mary et. al. at March 29, 2005 2:07 PM

Jeremy: Good luck in your remaining two years and remember to incorporate compassion in your practice.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 29, 2005 2:10 PM

Juleni: why do you ask if I'm a Scientologist? That's got to be the most bizarre non-sequitur of a question I've ever been asked. But for the record, no, I'm not. I don't see how Scientology really comes into this, though...?

Posted by: Becky at March 29, 2005 4:02 PM

Please make sure that Terri's family demands that a consultant expert forensic pathologist, like Dr. Michael Baden, participates in the autopsy, when and if it occurs!

Posted by: Robert W. Smith MD at March 30, 2005 9:29 PM