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March 29, 2005

Judge Greer's Assignment to the Case

Topics: Legal affairs

To clarify some questions that have been posted and repeatedly raised on how such a "friendly" judge to Michael Schiavo got assigned to the case, there is less conspiracy that most people imagine that was involved. Judges, when put on the bench are assigned to a particular areas of law. Some judges are criminal, some are civil, some are probate (like Judge Greer), some do family law, and so on. This particular case because of the issues involved as I understand them, fell under probate court.

There are probably a handful of judges that do probate, so that whittled the number that could be assigned down significantly. From there, cases may be assigned by the head judge (or other designated mechanism) usually be assigning the case (if unique) to the judge who has the best competency to deal with the case. Because of Judge Greer's significant involvement in the "right-to-die" movement, this fell right into his well-known competency. I'm not sure how many other judges have such views or competency, but I have heard the court as a whole is very much aligned with "right-to-die" views.

In the end, it was more a matter of coincidence that a sympathetic player was already on the court and likely to be assigned the case as opposed to some conspiracy to get him assigned. As a disclaimer this is how I understand the process to work in general, it may be lacking in the way it works in Pinnellas County as I have no specific knowledge of that court.

Posted by john at March 29, 2005 7:11 PM


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I could locate no email address for Daniel Webster, but here's the rest of the Florida Senate:

alexander.jd.web@flsenate.gov, argenziano.nancy.web@flsenate.gov, aronberg.dave.web@flsenate.gov, atwater.jeff.web@flsenate.gov, baker.carey.web@flsenate.gov, bennett.mike.web@flsenate.gov, bullard.larcenia.web@flsenate.gov,
campbell.walter.web@flsenate.gov, carlton.lisa.web@flsenate.gov, clary.charlie.web@flsenate.gov, constantine.lee.web@flsenate.gov, crist.victor.web@flsenate.gov, dawson.mandy.web@flsenate.gov, portilla.alex.web@flsenate.gov, dockery.paula.web@flsenate.gov, fasano.mike.web@flsenate.gov, garcia.rudy.web@flsenate.gov, geller.steven.web@flsenate.gov, haridopolos.mike.web@flsenate.gov, hill.anthony.web@flsenate.gov, jones.dennis.web@flsenate.gov, king.james.web@flsenate.gov, klein.ron.web@flsenate.gov, lawson.alfred.web@flsenate.gov, lee.tom.web@flsenate.gov, lynn.evelyn.web@flsenate.gov, margolis.gwen.web@flsenate.gov, miller.lesley.web@flsenate.gov, peaden.durell.web@flsenate.gov, posey.bill.web@flsenate.gov, pruitt.ken.web@flsenate.gov, rich.nan.web@flsenate.gov, saunders.burt.web@flsenate.gov,
sebesta.jim.web@flsenate.gov, siplin.gary.web@flsenate.gov, smith.rod.web@flsenate.gov, villalobos.alex.web@flsenate.gov, wilson.frederica.web@flsenate.gov, wise.stephen.web@flsenate.gov

Posted by: Raquel at March 29, 2005 7:51 PM

Bill sponsor Daniel Webster has emerged as the biggest obstacle. He just threw cold water on Jackson's efforts: "If [Jackson] could sway votes - and I'm certain he may be able to - it would have been helpful if he had done that a little earlier" said Webster, a Republican. "We're running out of time. To do it now is not as timely as a couple of weeks ago would have been."

Under Webster's twisted logic nothing good would ever happen, because it's always better to do good earlier. So Webster ends up shooting down his own bill. He's the one to complain to.

A hastily scheduled vote in the Florida Senate may have a better chance of passage then before simply because some of the opponents may not show up.

On John's posting about judge assignments to cases, the general rule is that assignments should be random. The question of how Judge Greer received this unusual case does cry out for investigation and explanation. One might wonder if Felos gamed the system to get Greer.

Andy

Posted by: AndyS at March 29, 2005 7:57 PM

The only thing I can find for
Mr.Webster is this with a fax:
(407) 656-0066
SunCom 326-2062
FAX (407) 297-2064
FAX SunCom 326-2064
If you fax him,maybe remind him.
Much like a crumpled $100 bill
is still $100 bill,
Terri's LIFE is a LIFE
Terri is Alive

Posted by: lynaqua at March 29, 2005 8:29 PM

Each judge will be qualified to serve in any division, thereby creating a judicial pool from which judges may be assigned to various courts throughout the state.
The chief judge shall assign judges to the courts and divisions, and shall determine the
length of each assignment.

Forum shopping is a term used in legal circles for manipulating the selection of a judge sympathetic to your case.

Posted by: democrat at March 29, 2005 8:34 PM

Pope May Have to Have Feeding Tube Inserted
Italian News Reports Says John Paul II May Have to Return to Hospital
By NICOLE WINFIELD, AP
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050224055909990001
The Irony of it All
Has anyone read the article about the Pope's failing health? It has been difficult to swallow and they want to put a feeding tube into him. Interesting perspective. What say you Judges???

Posted by: CJaye at March 29, 2005 8:55 PM

Seem a little strange that all God's people are going down the feeding tube.

democrat,
'Splain this to me. How does a probate judge get to rule on constitutional questions? Or was someone wrong who told me Greer ruled the Terri law unconstitutional.

Posted by: mary et. al. at March 29, 2005 9:10 PM

Now I know that what I have been led to pray these days is the right direction. I have been spending a lot of time in Isaiah 28, especially verses 14 through 18. I have been praying that Greer et al's "covenant with death will be annulled; and that their agreement with death will not stand." (18)

Another verse that popped out at me Saturday night is 1 Cor. 1:27-28 - "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things - and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him." I couldn't help but notice the echo of the words "annulled" and "nullify". There is a "word" from Dutch Sheets about interceeding for Terri at http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=417

Sheets' guidelines are very sound and have really helped me when I have been too dismayed over the circumstantial events. Please join us in this line of intercession.
This is definitely a spiritual battle far more than anything else. I pray a lot for a spirit of humility and repentance for our country. God have mercy on Terri and may He be glorified through it all.

Posted by: darjeelingirl at March 29, 2005 9:37 PM

ooops - I meant to post the above under the topic with all the scientology info, but the point is still the same. (maybe webmasters can move it?)

Posted by: darjeelingirl at March 29, 2005 9:39 PM

You have described the Pinellas courts correctly, John.

Mary, it was the Florida Supreme Court that struck down Terri's Law ultimately; however, any judge can technically "rule something unconstitutional." The Constitution is the ultimate law from which all other laws follow. Judges use the entire body of law, including rulings made by other judges ("precedent") when making rulings. But like I said, fundamentally all of that flows from the Constitution. When a law is ruled unconstitutional, it just means that the judge believes that to uphold the law would violate the person's Constitutional rights -- in this case the right to privacy.

I'm curious... why does everyone characterize Greer as being sympathetic to MS, and not simply sympathetic to the law? Greer is a conservative Republican, pro-life, and Baptist (the St. Pete Times had an article profiling him a few weeks ago -- I'll look it up if anyone needs the source). He's not exactly the murderer some people are painting him as. Indeed, to my mind he's the best kind of judge: the kind that can leave his religion and politics at home when he puts on his robe. He has followed the law -- and remember, it was not Greer that decided what Terri would have wanted, it was 12 men and women who heard testimony and made their judgment. What I'm reading is basically that you want Greer to go against all of the precedent -- not to mention the opinion of the jury -- and make new law. Number one, that's not the job of a lowly probate judge; number two, if a judge did that on a liberal issue -- say, gay marriage -- he'd be labeled an "activist judge" by many of the same people. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not saying that what is happening to Terri is right, fair, moral, or compassionate; just that assassinating people's characters because they did their jobs isn't the way to resolve this issue.

Posted by: Becky at March 29, 2005 10:05 PM

Actually I thought the whole point was she did not have a trial jury-is that not what Gov Bush wanted with his legislation-a trial jury? He was denied. I could be off here, but I think you are wrong about the jury but if I am I truly apologize. You raise an interesting question about leaving religion at home when it comes to being a judge. I am not sure that is so good, and as the born again Christian that he claims to be I would think that Gods laws would have to come before the state of Floridas - complicated yes, but as Christians our choices are more difficult.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 10:11 PM


Queen: Now, Ha ha... are you ready for your sentence?
Alice: Sentence? Ah, but there must be a verdict first!
Queen: Sentence first! Verdict afterwards.
Alice: But that just isn't the way!
Queen: All ways are...
Alice: Your ways, your majesty.
Queen: Yes, my child. Off with her...
King: Consider, my dear. Uh... we called no witnesses... Uh... couldn't we hear... maybe one or two? Ha? Maybe?
Queen: Oh, very well. But get on with it!
King: First witness! First witness! Ah, we'll call the first witness.
White Rabbit: The March Hare.
King: Oh, oh, what do you know about this uh... unfortunate affair?
March Hare: Nothing.
Queen: Nothing whatever?
March Hare: Nothing whatever!
Queen: That's very important! Jury, write that down!

Posted by: democrat at March 29, 2005 10:26 PM

From the flsenate.gov home page:
"The Senate will convene on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 from 9:00 a.m.—11:30 a.m., or upon the Call of the President."
That's 0600 Pacific time, people. No time to waste!

More senators to call:
Sen. Tom Lee, President of the Senate: (850) 487-5072
Sen. Daniel Webster, the author of the original bill, who now seems to be losing heart (cheer him up, but nicely!):
(850) 487-5047

I would also call all the Senators in the Black Caucus that were lobbied by Rev. Jackson, according to the AP news article. There's no listing, but here's my best guess as to who might have gotten the Rev.'s calls:
Sen. Larcenia Bullard (D): (850) 487-5127
Sen. M. Mandy Dawson (D): (850) 487-5112
Sen. Alfred Lawson, Jr. (D): (850) 487-5004
Sen. Lesley Miller, Jr. (D): (850) 487-5059
Sen. Gary Siplin (D): (850) 487-5190 (per AP article, he probably won't change his mind)
Sen. Frederica Wilson (D): (850) 487-5116

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 29, 2005 10:26 PM

Alwayschooselife, the Constitution insists that there must be a separation of church and state in this country. That separation is what makes our country so beautiful and so unique: the government cannot use religious law as civil law, which means we are each free to practice the faith of our choice. You may not like it, but separation of church and state is not going to change... it is what our country is founded upon.

As for the legal history: briefly, MS took advantage of a Florida law that allows for a trial to decide what a person would have wanted when there is no advanced directive. It was concluded that there was "clear and convincing evidence" that Terri would not want to remain alive in the state she was in. Thus, that became the law -- legal precedent -- and every appeal since then has had to honor that precedent. For a detailed legal history, see this site: http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

Posted by: Becky at March 29, 2005 10:29 PM

I saw on another thread that one of the aides said the vote will take place at 1:00. Still have not heard anything on the news-weird.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 10:32 PM

Oh, thanks for the numbers-will anyone answer this late at night?

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 10:33 PM

Becky-thank you for that-I appreciate your point of view. Unfortunately the actual purpose of the seperation of church and state was to protect religious freedom. This is not being done in this case. This is the same "seperation of church and state" that has taken prayer out of our schools and God out of the pledge of allegiance. It is the bottom line of why we are here today. 50 years ago we would not be here. 50 years ago we would not have school shootings. 50 years ago the value of life was held high. When the founders created the seperation of church and state they were afraid of persecution. I am pretty sure that Terri is being persecuted. Regardless, it is good to have people like you around to keep us on our toes and to offer other opinins that make us think and fight harder.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 10:53 PM

“[W]ith less process than would be necessary to seize a refrigerator,” a Florida court has ordered the death of an innocent, disabled woman through one of the most cruel and unusual means imaginable: starvation and dehydration. (Citation)

Because the Florida court (Judge Greer-upheld by Florida appellate court) found that MS had a conflict of interest because of the malpractice money, MS requested and Greer granted the request to appoint himself as Terri's surrogate guardian to allegedly represent her interest in court.

The judicial “modification” of Florida law that occurred below had begun. Had the Florida courts followed the law as written, the trial judge would not have been permitted to act as Terri Schiavo’s surrogate.

Under no circumstances is a trial judge permitted to argue one side of a case as though he were a litigant in the proceedings. The survival of our system of justice depends on the maintenance of the judge as an independent and impartial decisionmaker. A judge who becomes an advocate cannot claim even the pretense of impartiality. (From Terri's parents motion to the U.S. Supreme Court)

These general facts constitute some of the constitutional questions raised in the case by Terri's parents. Whether or not her rights to due process--to have her voice heard, to have representation to protect her interests, were violated.

Ultimately, Greer ruled that MS was biased and Terri needed protection from that bias in the court proceedings, but then relied on MS testimony in coming to the conclusion that Terri wished to end life as a disabled woman or that MS had the authority, because he was/is her husband, to choose to end her life.

Another constitutional question is whether or not Terri's first amendment right to freedom of religion was violated by the Florida rulings, and another is whether Terri has been denied equal protection under the law as granted by the 14th amendment.

Judges have the authority to rule on questions of law including constitutional law and their ruling and orders are always subject to review, although here the reviewing courts have all failed in this undertaking----

this appears to me to be based more on the power of the bench rather than on the facts and the law.

IANAL

Posted by: democrat at March 29, 2005 10:58 PM

In 1637 Anne Hutchinson stood trial alone, with no lawyer to defend her. Hutchinson's "crime" was expressing religious beliefs that were different from the colony's rulers. Just being a Quaker was punishable by whipping, mutilation, or death. Between 1658 and 1661, four Quakers were hanged.

But even amidst persecution, the idea of religious freedom grew. After the colonies won their freedom from Great Britain, the, new leaders of the United States of America put religious freedom in writing. Article VI of the Constitution declared that "no religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to and Office or Public Trust under the United States." Amendment I stated that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Posted by: democrat at March 29, 2005 11:08 PM

For those who would like to question why there are those of us who question several legal officials involved in this case, I suggest reading the following articles and examining the chart in the Death Order story. The articles are available at The Empire Journal. The information about who has financially supported who is public record. Read away and then get back to us about all of the matters of chance involved in Terri Schiavo being shafted.

Schiavo Judge Greer Supported by Politics, Religion in Death Order

Schiavo Case Tangled Web of Deception, Corruption

Posted by: imdll at March 29, 2005 11:12 PM


Our nation had an opportunity to choose life over death. It was coincidentally brought to the forefront of our televisions on Easter Sunday. Our nation has made its choice and now our country has the blood of Terry Schiavo on its hands. I believe that our nation will now be judged by the almighty God for this terrible choice. Lord have mercy.

Posted by: cozmo at March 29, 2005 11:14 PM

Becky -

Just to clarify; there was a 'trial', but not by 'a jury of peers' (like in a criminal trial), it was the judge who was the lone 'jurist'.

Greer seemed to have been doing his best to follow the 'law' (originally), though his lack of consideration pertaining to facts/evidence/testimony was pretty pathetic (that's why 6 or 12 jurors would have been preferable due to 'careful consideration, debate, and resolution of opposing interpretations'). One person's "clear and convincing evidence" (especially if they are not paying close attention, or are out of their 'element') can be diametrically opposed to anothers - that's why juries are made up of a 'number' of people.

Now - whether he is just "past his prime" as a judge, "tired" of the same case, or came up against a case which was "too much" for his abilities (you have to wonder what relegated him to "Probate"?), is anyone's guess. But the facts show that in the last few years Greer had been veering further and further astray of the law as it was written or interpreted by precedent, and in the end flat out refused to even rule at all on some Motion's.
He also refused (5 times) to recuse himself from this case, and became increasingly belligerent in his Denials/Orders (ie. DCF). He has shown that he is done 'judging' anything of substance, and is just a probate K.I.S.S. judge, waiting out his retirement I guess.

As you've likely read, it seems that his abilities have declined (ie. 'legally' blind) to a point where the difficulties of maintaining the stature of a "Judge" is precariously balanced.

Posted by: Raquel at March 29, 2005 11:20 PM

Cozmo-do not give up yet. Where two or more are gathered in in my name there I will be says the Lord. He hears our prayers and he is keeping Terri alive. It was in Sodom and Gommora that God told Abraham that if there were ten righteouss men he would spare the land. Well there was not, but there is here.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 29, 2005 11:30 PM

Ok, I have a question.

The Schiavo death camp has claimed that Terri suffered a heart attack from a potasium imballance caused from bulimia. This was the premis of the malpractice suit that Michael won.

Chronic bulimia or anorexia can weaken many parts of the body. If Terri really had reached a health crisis where her body was so out of wack that it caused a heart attack, then why has she not had any such symptoms during this extreme test of her system?

Why is this not raising any eyebrows!

Posted by: imdll at March 29, 2005 11:37 PM

Becky:

Quote me chapter and verse of the "Separation of Church and State" article of the US Constitution. You cannot, because it is not there.

The really ironic thing is that Madeline Murray O'Hare used that non-existent Constitutional right to eliminate the mention of God within our public schools. And we all know what happened to her--she was MURDERED in a SATANIC ritual! Yeah, God may not be allowed in this great Nation, but Satan is sure running rampant.

"...the government cannot use religious law as civil law, which means we are each free to practice the faith of our choice..."

So, ms becky...where do we get the basis for our "civil" law?

--thou shalt not KILL
--thou shalt not Steal
--thou shalt not bear False Witness (perjury)
--thou shalt not commit adultry (which is technically a crime in most states, just not prosecuted.)
--thou shalt not covet...and we just can't take that which isn't ours.

See, MORAL LAW (that would be GOD'S LAW) is the underlying foundation for your CIVIL LAW. And it is only because we had Christian founding fathers that we allow freedom of RELIGION in this country. See, that's what the Constitution guarantees, freedom of Religion. Not Separation of Church and State.

"...You may not like it, but separation of church and state is not going to change... it is what our country is founded upon."

No again, Ms becky. This Country was founded by men who no longer wanted to be held hostage to a King; they wanted a voice in their government. And being that they didn't like the forced state-sponsored religion of the same King, they set to protect the people by mandating that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of a religion, NOR SHALL THEY PROHIBIT THE FREE EXPRESSION THEREOF..." In English, for the weak minded--this means that Congress cannot create a state sponsored religion and FORCE the citizens to follow it. It does not mean that Congress must eliminate God and HIS NAME and His Laws from the country. That's Satan's wish; not the founding father's.

So, please ms becky, quote me chapter and verse--for I have great difficulty with uneducated people rewriting and interpreting the Constitution.

Oh, by the way--Greer is in violation of multiple laws. Terri's Constitutional rights have been denied, and her FREE EXPRESSION of RELIGION has been denied. Her husband and george feel-less purchased BTK greer with blood money (Kinda like Judas sold Jesus and then the Sanhedrin purchased the field with the same blood money).

Greer calls himself a Conservative Christian, but his Pastor asked him to leave the congregation because his verdicts were inconsistent with Christian belief. Greer "resigned" as reported by the MSM, but only because the true Christians in his Church didn't want to be associated with him.

Posted by: Tress at March 29, 2005 11:38 PM

Hi Tress, please allow me to answer for Becky:

After the colonies won their freedom from Great Britain, the, new leaders of the United States of America put religious freedom in writing.

These are the constitutional laws separating church and state:

Article VI of the Constitution declares that "no religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to and Office or Public Trust under the United States."


Amendment I states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Posted by: democrat at March 29, 2005 11:45 PM

Another question.

I accidentally came across an article here http://walterolson.com/articles/sandiego.html called "Will Trial-Lawyer Cash Corrupt Our Courts?" It was written in 1996. It is not about this case specifically. The thing tht caught my eye was that there was a Superior Court Judge Michael Greer in San Diego that plead guilty to bribery. Is this a common name or? There were two other judges and a prominent trial lawyer convicted as well.

I don't want to jump to any conclusions, it's just that it caught me as amazingly coincidental.

Posted by: imdll at March 29, 2005 11:54 PM

Tress & Democrat -

You are both right. It's a matter of interpretation... like if we interpret it the way the Founder's meant it (ie. only "Protestant Christians" can hold office, or only "Jewish Synagogues" are allowed in this county - are NOT allowed, as the "state" can not determine or 'rule' on a person's own religious choice)... but if we interpret it the way the "new America" has meant it (ie. no prayer in school, etc.) we are no going against the founder's ideal of free religious exercise by basically outlawing it altogether in any "public forum" having even the most vague association with our Government... (by the people, for the people).

Posted by: Raquel at March 29, 2005 11:55 PM

Tress & Democrat -

You are both right. It's a matter of interpretation... like if we interpret it the way the Founder's meant it (ie. only "Protestant Christians" can hold office, or only "Jewish Synagogues" are allowed in this county - are NOT allowed, as the "state" can not determine or 'rule' on a person's own religious choice)... but if we interpret it the way the "new America" has meant it (ie. no prayer in school, etc.) we are no going against the founder's ideal of free religious exercise by basically outlawing it altogether in any "public forum" having even the most vague association with our Government... (by the people, for the people).

Now, I am not religious... I am a fairly open-minded liberal "Independent" voter... But I do find it atrocious that the 10 commandments have been outlawed in public places and that school children are not even allowed a "moment of silence" (in which to pray, or collect your thoughts, or not pray, or whatever) while they are expected to dutifully Pledge an Allegiance to the Flag of our Nation which was based on these very principles.

Posted by: Raquel at March 29, 2005 11:59 PM

Darjeelingirl, you are right on the money.

I have an incredible expectancy that rises in my heart when I pray for Terri .. it's not from me, that I know. God is not done here ... not by a long shot.

Believers, take a look at Dutch Sheets word, and pray into it ... there is much solid stuff there!

http://www.breakingchristiannews.com/articles/display_art.html?ID=417

Dave

Posted by: Dave_MN at March 30, 2005 12:05 AM

Democrat:

And where in those two Constitutional Laws does it state "separation of church and state"????

Where does it state that the Government cannot use religious law as civil law?

Where does it state that prayer must not be allowed in public schools?

Where does it state that there can be no religious displays on government property?

I could go on and on, but I think we are on the same side here, and I'm not arguing what the Constitution says; just what becky want it to say...which is separation of church and state.

What the article and amendment you quoted say "in English" is simple:

Article VI states that no individual will be barred from public office on the basis of his/her religion. In other words, there is no established requirement for an individual to practice a specific religion in order to hold office in the United States.

The Amendment states, as I so eloquently stated above: Congress cannot establish a state sponsored religion and demand we all follow it. There will be no "Church of the USA". At the same time, the Constitution prohibits the free exercise of religion--which BTK greer has taken from Terri. See, as a practicing Catholic, she follows the Church teaching on life support. The Church does not allow the removal of food and water; Terri is being forced to starve and dehydrate--thus in violation of her Religious tenets. Oh, and if she had an advanced directive (which she didn't), the removal of food and water by choice would be (1) self-selected torture or (2) suicide. Neither of which are consistent with the Catholic faith.

Terri is the victim of a small circuit court judge from the Newly Designated "Death without Dignity" state of Florida. She is the victim sentenced to execution by same judge who has decided that he alone is the master of life and death.

I still think the President should charge her with a felony; at least then she would have some protections under the "law".

Hitler started with the disabled and elderly and eventually moved to the Jews; he wanted to create the perfect race. For all of you "kill Terri" advocates, I sure hope you fit the description of the perfect race, because I haven't a clue who greer and feel-less will attack next.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 12:12 AM

I've mentioned this before, but feel even more strongly now: the Schindlers should publicly request a meeting with Michael Schiavo, without attorneys present. I'm convinced that Michael is being manipulated by attorney George Felos and his pro-death agenda. I doubt Michael had any idea what he was getting into, and may want out. He could abandon his guardianship immediately in a meeting with the Schindlers, and publicly ask that their requests be granted. The Schindlers could show Michael the pro-death book by Felos and how Felos is not acting in Terri's best interest.

Of course no one on Terri's side has any sympathy for Michael. I don't either. But Felos is running this show and the sooner Michael realizes that, the better it is for Terri.

If Michael broke ranks with this death march then Judge Greer would no longer have cover for his death sentence. Everything would swing immediately in Terri's favor.

Someone, please, persuade the Schindlers to meet with Michael, as unpleasant as that may be.

Andy

Posted by: AndyS at March 30, 2005 12:18 AM

Breaking News!

The Shindlers are going back to court. The have sent a petition to the 11th circut appeals court in Atlanta. They are asking the entire panel of judges to rule on replacing Terri's feeding tube.

I'm not entirely sure what happened to have them decide to go back to court but they interupted the programing to announce this new development on CNN.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 12:27 AM

I do not think you would have to convince the Schindlers to meet with Michael. It is getting Michael to meet with the Schindlers and first the Schindlers would have to get through Felos. When I think about this I see something out of a movie- a very scary, realistic, satanic cult movie. Let me set up the scene for you.

Michael starts to change his mind-he is crying in anguish "am I doing the right thing-the pressure is so much" then in walks Felos. "On the count of 3 you will forget all that is happening around you and only focus on killing your wife. You will remember what a burden she has been to you all these years and how it is her fault she collapsed and became braindead and is not worthy of living." There is a second of silence and then "1,2,3. Good Michael now we must continue to focus on the task before us. We are so close."

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 12:31 AM

'Life, you are right that no one will answer at this hour... but voicemail is on.
Imdll, thanks for the breaking news.
Everybody else, I love you all, and I'm not trying to be the cops here, but we need to stay focused on our efforts to save Terri. If the side discussions on church/state give you energy, great, but if they drain it, or provoke quarrels among people who are otherwise united in purpose, I recommend putting them on hold for now.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 12:31 AM

Andy S,

I don't know that I agree with you that Felos is the driving force in this matter. I do believe he certainly is a factor, however it is my understanding that the decision to remove Terri's feedig tube was made prior to hiring Felos. In fact my understanding is that the desire to remove the feeding tube was one of the reasons in hiring Felos.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 12:34 AM

Andy, your idea is certainly worth a try. I think there is contact info for the Schindlers' lawyers at terrisfight.org... ???
"Blessed are the peacemakers."

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 12:35 AM

On the breaking news- I cannot find that anywhere either-where is that coming from. I hope it works although I do not know what would have changed from before.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 12:35 AM

Mary:

I agree with you about saving Terri, but for me personnally, this issue transcends just Terri's plight. It boils down to the basic fundamentals of Our Constitution and how Terri's rights under the Constitution have been violated. As a vet who swore to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, I'm incensed that no one has taken out BTK greer as a major enemy to the US Constitution....

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 12:38 AM

MS and the Schindlers getting together is not an option and I feel it is wrong to even mention it as a potential resolution. There is an imbalance of power which MS has greatly abused and it would not be fair to allow MS to torture Bob and Mary any more than he already has been allowed to do!!

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 12:39 AM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20050330/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman

what's this about, folks?? they're going to hear it now, on the 12th day?

Posted by: MikeKS at March 30, 2005 12:43 AM

Sanderson,

She drank the wine for communion. She swallows She could maybe be taught to eat just like a baby has to be taught to eat. We do not know because it hasn ot been tried. In all seriousness the feeding tube being life support arguement just does not hold up. Babies have to be fed-we feed them from our breasts or from bottles. Without it they would die, but do we consider it life support?

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 12:43 AM

This is off the CNN web site referring to Jesse Jackson:

While he has sided with the Schindlers, Jackson said in a statement last week that he had "serious misgivings about the appropriateness of Congress intervening with the legal court process on a specific, individual matter."

It's tragic, it's heartbreaking, but it's with in legal bounds.

Posted by: sanderson at March 30, 2005 12:44 AM

What I read was it was a "drop of wine placed on her tongue" not that she swallowed a drink of wine.

Posted by: sanderson at March 30, 2005 12:45 AM

I found an item about Judge Greer. It is about his biography. I am just guessing that they left this stuff out of the Times magazine article. They quote an article in St. Pete Times, 3/18/05. It is rather enlightening.

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1371099/posts

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 12:45 AM

Dear Democrat from 8:34p posting. Say, I'm a attorney representing a client in a probate case and I want to stack things in his/her favor. How exactly do I go about 'forum shopping' for the judge I think will rule in my client's favor. Any idea? Please be specific. Thanks.

Posted by: Anna_Nordin at March 30, 2005 12:50 AM

Just got this MSNBC Breaking News E-mail!:

------------------------------------------------------
MSNBC Breaking News
------------------------------------------------------

Federal appeals court grants Terri Schiavo's parents the right to seek rehearing -
A federal appeals court in Atlanta has granted Terri Schiavo's parents the right to file a petition for rehearing for an injunction that could allow their brain-damaged daughter's feeding tube to be reconnected.

Posted by: Aaron at March 30, 2005 12:52 AM

Hey, folks, there was still room in some Senators' voicemail when I finished making my calls! ;-)

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 12:56 AM

I am too tired to argue. A drop of wine- a cup of wine. God can work miracles and that is where I am looking towards right now.

"Join with others in following my example, brothers and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. For as I have often told you before and now say again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who be the power that enables him to bring everything under his control will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Phillipians 3-17-21

If you get there before I do Terri I will look forward to meeting up with you and seeing what God has done.

However, I think you have a chance to live a very long life.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 12:56 AM

Anna Nordin

Go to my 11:28 posting and do a little reading on the things that have occured in this particular situation.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 12:57 AM

Is it really happening-I might be awake now

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 12:59 AM

You know, BTK greer thinks that inspite of all his maneuverings, manipulations and corruptions, he is a "Conservative Christian" He also believes that inspite of his court-ordered death-by-starvation of Terri Shiavo, he will go to Heaven.

I wonder why he thinks that way...Maybe because he Believes in Jesus as his Personal Lord and Savior? Well, Satan believes in Jesus as the Lord and Savior, too...but no one would assume Satan is a Christian. And no one would assume that Satan is going to Heaven.

Herein lies the problem with people like greer. They think that just because they "believe" in Jesus, they will go to heaven. Well---every single soul in Hell believes in Jesus. We have to do so much more than believe; we have to LIVE, and greer has failed to LIVE the faith he professes.

I hope and pray that the Divine Mercy of Jesus will rescue Terri Shiavo, and that the JUSTICE of this great nation will prosecute greer, feel-less and Shitavo as the corrupt criminals they are.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:01 AM

Where are you guys finding this breaking information-I watch the news all day(I seriously need to get a life) I have not seen anything on granting a petition or a vote tomorrow-nothing. I believe you-I just want to see it for myself

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 1:02 AM

Hi Always:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151777,00.html

Praise The Lord....

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:04 AM

Thank you Tress. Thank you

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 1:04 AM

Everyone pray, this is huge news. why would they just agree to hear it? Is something new? What is the basis of the petition? anyone know?

I'm just worried if Terri can make it, after 12 days. Pray!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: MikeKS at March 30, 2005 1:06 AM

Can we start a prayer chain?

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 1:07 AM

I wonder if Jesse's comments: "I feel so passionate about this injustice being done, how unnecessary it is to deny her a feeding tube, water, not even ice to be used for her parched lips," said Jackson, who has run for president as a Democrat. "This is a moral issue and it transcends politics and family disputes." had any impact on the Court?

Thank you, Jesse

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:08 AM

Question. When is the petition going to be heard. Will she be given water and food in the meantime? Do we call the same numbers? I am really awake now.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 1:10 AM

MikeKS:

For some reason, I think Terri is a messenger from God; she is here for a reason. With HIS help, she can hang on....With HIS help, she can recover, With HIS help, she can live.

Always,

Don't know if we need a prayer chain--most everyone positing here is praying and the people outside the hospice are praying. The only one's who aren't praying are the anti-Terri life/ pro-Terri death groups.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:12 AM

Tress--I dont know about the court. Something new would have to come up. The only thing I"ve been thinking of is how the testimony of the friend of Terri's (laura was talking about this tonight on the radio) was ignored by Greer.

We're racing the clock now. Where was Jesse last week? Argh.

Posted by: MikeKS at March 30, 2005 1:12 AM

'Life, I'm game to start a prayer chain if you can tell me how it works! :-)
I would keep calling the Florida legislators. We have to be prepared for the court to shoot this down yet again, unless they have agreed to hear new evidence or there is something that has changed their view of the case. The Florida Senate is definitely meeting tomorrow, according to their Web site (www.flsenate.gov). I saw no word on whether or not she will be given anything in the meantime. (A horrid thought: Is this hearing in good faith, or are they just trying to run out the clock?)
I say we keep hitting their phones and our knees.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 1:14 AM

Please keep us informed of what you are hearing. I can't watch tv right now - would wake up the family.

I just received a link from another group that has some video of Terri with her dad. It is a must see video - there is absolutely no way that anyone watching that would say Terri is NOT communicating with her dad. It is so so obvious! I don't know how someone got this but if you can, download it and send it to media. It is amazing.

Keep praying and praying. Maybe our prayers are going to be answered soon!

Here's the link: http://4lifeshaperite.com/rumbles/Conversations_with_Terri.html

Posted by: LifeisPrecious at March 30, 2005 1:21 AM

MikeS:

apparantly an emergency appeal was made to the appeals court last night to have a rehearing about the tube reinsertion to be done before the full 12 judges again instead of just three.

Posted by: Vanessa at March 30, 2005 1:25 AM

(CBS/AP) A federal appeals court early Wednesday granted Terri Schiavo's parents the right to file a petition for rehearing for an injunction that could allow their daughter's feeding tube to be reconnected.

The ruling came just after midnight from the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta.

In this court filing, Schiavo's parents - Bob and Mary Schindler - argue that the District Court "committed plain error when it reviewed only the state court case and outcome history."

Now, the court is considering the request for a new trial rather than whether the state court rulings have met legal standards under Florida law, which is what federal courts have done in the case up to now.

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 1:28 AM

Life:

Yeah, I see her on the video...she's obviously "brain dead". Doesn't feel a thing....

It's no wonder michael has kept her locked up. If the world saw that she was alive, they would recognize him for the murderer he is....

Wouldn't it be ironic if michael found himself convicted of (attempted) 1st degree murder and then sentenced to the same fate as Terri?

Oh wait, he would be a convicted MURDERER, so he'll have protections under our Courts. He won't be tortured and starved to death...

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:31 AM

The only reason I suggested a prayer chain is because of the idea of where two or more are gathered-I truly believe in that. As far as how to do one-I am not sure but I was thinking of just starting it on one of these and having people continue on-If we could start a new thread that would be good too. I do not want to take away from what is happening here though so.... any suggestions?

You know what I am just going to do it. What can be lost. It is quite possible that you all are going to think I have lost my mind but frankly I do not care. I care about obeying what God has laid on my heart and this I cannot ignore.

I guess just add your prayer if you wish to this post.

Precious Hevenly Father we come before you now with our hearts broken for Terri and her family. She is your child and you love her no matter what condition she is in. You have placed it on my heart to pray for her Lord and I am asking that you keep her safe and well until something can be done to change the situation she is in. I pray that you soften the hearts of the Florida legislature, and the 11th circuit court of appeals. I pray that you bind Satan from those venues and that your will be done. I ask that you be with Michael Schiavo tonight and that you soften his heart. Do not let him sleep, eat, or be able to stop thinking about his wife Terri until he gives her back to his parents. Please release him from any control that his lawyers may have over him. Please protect Terris family and the protesters that are so brave. Lord let tomorrow be the day for a miracle. Thank you for all of your blessings.

In Jesus name.

(When you are done with this please start calling:)

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 1:32 AM

It may be more likely than not that the court, since agreeing to hear the case, will reinsert the tube to preserve Terri's life pending review! omg

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 1:32 AM

Always:

I never intended an insult--I was only (in a backward and overtired sort of way) trying to agree; because in a sense, we are all praying for Terri and are a "prayer chain"

I also believe in "Whereever two or three are gathered in My Name, there am I also." That's why so many people have remained vigilant in their prayers.

I also liked your prayer--it was beautiful.

To start a prayer "chain" you would call someone and ask them to pray for Terri. They would then call someone and ask them to pray. Each person becomes a link in the chain....

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:37 AM

Does anyone know the grounds for the new appeal? This is very startling, especially because the permission has been granted this time.

Keep praying for Terri. Something good is going to come from all of this

Posted by: Maggie4life at March 30, 2005 1:40 AM

In this court filing, Schiavo's parents - Bob and Mary Schindler - argue that the District Court "committed plain error when it reviewed only the state court case and outcome history."

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 1:43 AM

'Life, that prayer is beautiful. A-MEN!!!
Tress, thanks for explaining prayer chains to me. I've never been part of one before. But I am now!
Me --> my husband --> my sister... onward.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 1:44 AM

And Maybe the court will allow Terri to come in and witness the proceedings...

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:44 AM

I saw and interview with Bobby yesterday, I think. He spoke about Terri not being allowed outside and very few visitors and no pictures or video, and he came right out and said that Michael was keeping her away from the public because he didn't want people to know the truth.

Earlier today Gibbs said that they would want an autopsy done by someone specialized in looking for strangulation and so forth. Now people are starting to hear some of the truth.

I have to say that I think that the Shindlers have been running a clean campaign against a dirty opponent. They may have been bound by some kind of gag order, I don't know. To me it would be worth jail to scream long and loud about the facts in this case to try to save my daughter. It has only been in the desperate last moments that the cutting truth has been shared with the public.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 1:45 AM

Here is my prayer: Heavenly Father, I thank you for your many mercies and for sustaining Terri through her trials. In the name of your Son, Terri's savior and mine, I humbly ask that you continue to sustain her life, that you open the eyes, minds, and hearts of the Florida lawmakers and judges. Grant them courage, wisdom, and strength to obey the laws of this land, and your laws, and save Terri's life by restoring her with food and water. In Jesus' name, Amen.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 1:49 AM

I think the most significant fact in this case and is that Terri, in spite of being "dead" for 15 years has yet to actually die....

And no one, can argue that a "brain dead" person who was being "kept alive artificially" by food and water, would survive this long without the artificial food and water.

Dead brains do not function for 12 days without food and water (of course michael and feel-less and greer are exceptions to the rule, but I'm talking Human brains). Maybe the judges and the congress and the world are starting to see this as something that really smellz FOUL.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:50 AM

Tress no offense taken-I know what you were saying. Thank you and thanks Mary-does anyone know if they will reinstate her tube before this hearing?

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 1:50 AM

Before we move to the new thread, thank you, Tress, for your service to this country.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 1:51 AM

That was beautiful Mary I am crying

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 1:51 AM

'Life, I haven't heard one way or the other about the tube. I hope and pray so, though...

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 1:53 AM

Yes, there is a court order ordering there could be no videos of Terri and we already know that MS and Greer have restricted access to Terri. The videos some of us have seen were done in violation of the court orders and the family at one time was afraid to release them, afraid that the court would retaliate and might even put Bob or even Mary in jail.

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 1:53 AM

Mary:

Thanks for the compliment. In spite of this "evil" that has been grabbing our nation, I still love it here.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 1:55 AM

Also, Mary did not want to disobey the judge and break the (judge's) law because it went against her Catholic values.

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 1:56 AM

Hi ya Dem:

You know Mary's Catholic values would never allow God's law to succumb to Man's (re: greer's) law.

The opposite of live is not die. The "opposite" of live is evil....

The opposite of life, however, is Death and for those who follow Christ Jesus, Death is actually the beginning of LIFE.

I've never been against Terri's DEATH; only against the refusal to allow her to LIVE. See, if God chooses her DEATH, then it is His Will; if greer mandates her death, and refuses to allow her to live, then he has committed an act of evil.

Does this make sense at 2:00AM??

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 2:03 AM

Hugs to 'Life and Tress!

Democrat, that's a good point. Were you the one who said in the next thread that the Schindlers have been fighting clean in a dirty fight?

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 2:04 AM

Yes, but her beliefs include(d) a literal interpretation of the biblical command to obey the laws of the land.

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 2:06 AM

I don't remember saying that Mary, but it is true. Bob and Mary are wonderfully good people. The best!

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 2:09 AM

Yep - "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" is what Christians are called upon to do. The trouble is that "Caesar" Greer et al. are trying to take what is not theirs!

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 2:10 AM

Dem:

I must be a really horrid Catholic, cause I don't recall any "biblical command to obey the laws of the land." At least no Biblical command which would override the laws of God.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 2:11 AM

Actually, that was imdll who said that the Schindlers were fighting clean in a dirty fight (I'm paraphrasing). It certainly seems that way to me, too. Time after time, going back to the courts, only to be rebuffed again and again... They are a brave pair.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 2:13 AM

Dem:

I figured that was the verse you were referring to, however, Jesus made that statement in reference to paying taxes; He never indicated that we were to obey any laws which were contrary to God's laws. (and unfortunately for us, paying taxes is NOT contrary to God's laws....)

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 2:14 AM

There are several scriptures relating to this. Here is one: Romans 13:1-3 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinanace of God.......

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 2:18 AM

Mary, et All:

The Shindlers are fighting clean in a dirty fight because they are true Christians...and they believe in what they are fighting for. God's army doesn't fight dirty.

The shitavo, feel-less and BTK greer death camp, however, are not fighting as Christians. Again, since they are against Terri's right to live, they promote evil. And Evil never fights fair; it never fights clean; and it always lies; it never fights with truth. Evil, fights against truth; and that's what we've seen again and again and again.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 2:18 AM

Hello Becky. You talk about the Constitution. Please review the First Amendment. Note that the government cannot forbid the free practice of religion. Greta Van Susteren showed a clip of Bobby Schindler asking for daily Communion for Terri. As a Catholic, she is entitled to DAILY COMMUNION. She can receive our Lord Jesus Christ's Most Precious Blood. Her allegedly loving husband who allegedly cares for her has DENIED this request. Terri Schiavo is a CATHOLIC and it is her religious right (from a civil law point of view) to receive Communion daily. Because of the FIRST AMENDMENT of the Constitution, Michael Schiavo cannot legally bar her from DAILY RECEPTION of Communion, in my opinion. So, please explain why he is doing so.

Furthermore, have you looked at this video?

http://4lifeshaperite.com/rumbles/Conversations_with_Terri.html

Be sure you see it in a window as large as possible. Tell me, do you believe that is a comatose person? My aunt was in a coma three weeks before she died. She had NO responses. She did NOT laugh when specific things were said to her that were funny.

Please tell me why Felos and Michael Schiavo forbid video or tape recordings of Terri. It can't be for "privacy" in my opinion since they freely discuss her medical situation in the media.

Posted by: cw at March 30, 2005 2:23 AM

Dem:

I don't disagree with you about the Biblical references to obeying lawful authorities...Only that the Bible would never condone obeying any law which is contrary to God's Law; and neither would the Church. That is why so many early Christians died for their faith; They followed God's law over man's law...Bad, Bad, Bad Christians....Now, they are saints.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 2:25 AM

The Lord works in mysterious ways:

David was very much afraid of Achish the king of Gath. So he changed his behavior before them, feigned madness in their hands, scratched on the doors of the gate, and let his saliva fall down on his beard. Then Achish said to his servants "Look, you see the man is insane. Why have you brought him to me?" So he let David go and soon after David became King. 1Sam 21:12-15, 22:1-2

Posted by: democrat at March 30, 2005 2:37 AM

democrat, I am an Australian observer on all of this. You have given us a lot of insight with your comments. Thanks.

I noticed that there was some talk of separation of Church and State. You made some good points on the issue. I think that you will find that one of the motivations for this "law" is that the people framing your Constitution wanted to avoid designating one particular "church" as the state religion. This was the situation that existed in England in particular. When Henry VIII separated from the Church he imposed his state religion on the remainder of the population. At the same time it meant that the non-conformists, the puritans, were persecuted because they did not belong to the state religion.

That being said, I believe that your judiciary (and my own judiciary) go too far when they try to interpret the Constitution by attempting to be innovative with their decisions. I do not think that it was ever the intention of the framers of your Constitution to disallow prayer in public places.

I know some will think that this has nothing to do with Terri but I disagree because one of the arguments that is being used is that under the Constitution the Congress does not have the right to interfere in this case, and that Terri's Law that was signed by Jeb Bush was unconstitutional with the cited reason of separation of powers.

In effect what your judiciary was doing was striking down Terri's Law by being unconstitutional in their decision. Please bear with me on this one. From what I have seen of the decision, and I have not read it in detail, the notion that the law usurps the judiciary is pure nonsense. The judiciary is there to interpret the law, not to make new laws. What unjustice Greer has done is to make Greer's Law, the law of the land.

This discussion is also relevant to Australians by virtue of the fact that our judiciary has been following case law in the USA in some circumstances. They definitely followed that line after Roe vs. Wade. The implications of Greer's Law is very wide-ranging. It must be struck down.

Posted by: Maggie4life at March 30, 2005 4:59 AM

Sanderson, you should not accept everything that you see in the MSM. They only give the sanitized facts according to their ideology.

There are a lot of folk here who do not accept that Michael Schiavo is the model husband. They disagree with the notion that he was ever so loving to Terri. They also believe that his guardianship should have been revoked on the grounds of a conflict of interest.

Most of us, through investigation have discovered a lot of disturbing issues in this case. One of my own angles has been the alleged bulimia. Michael Schiavo very conveniently sealed the medical records so that people were not aware of the reports of her pathology tests of her blood and other specimens. What we know now is that Terri did not have a heart attack. If she did not have a heart attack, based upon her blood test, and the interpretation of the test, then in all probability there was another reason for the low potassium level.

I am not a medical expert, so I could be wrong on what I say. However, a few things were sticking out to me, and one of them was that Terri was treated for an enteric infection with Flagyl. I know from experience that this is the treatment for guardia, a parasite. If you ever end up with this parasite, you will find it is not a pleasant experience, complete with vomiting and diarrhoea. It is doubtful that bulimia is a correct or absolute diagnosis for the low potassium level upon arrival at the hospital. Another more likely and probable reason for the loss of potassium levels in the blood would be vomiting and diarrhoea due to this enteric infection.

It is amazing how one can have a mind change on this case when one does a little investigation. That is what happened when I did my own digging.

Posted by: Maggie4life at March 30, 2005 5:09 AM

Sanderson, she can swallow (she swallows her saliva)-- she has had thickened liquids from a baby bottle, she has had juice from a washcloth. Why hasn't she been strictly fed orally? Well, that's because her loving guardian ordered her not to be fed by mouth whatsoever. Simple as that. That's one of the injustice of this all... Terri's never been given a chance, because since 1993 she's been ordered to "be a vegetable" (to quote some pro-murder folks eloquent term.)
Obviously the law has failed, the law is wrong, and the law needs to be changed or amended to protect people.

Posted by: Foug at March 30, 2005 7:10 AM

Hello Maggie:

I think it says very little of the US Supreme Court and Our Government Institutions when an Australian can see the flaws in greer's justice and those who "know" and "understand" and "support" the US Constitution are blind to his treason.

I agree with your analysis on the Separation of Church and State; Freedom of Religion is something that makes this country great--no one can tell me how to worship and/or who to worship. I am free to choose my own paths; and I am free to reject worship as well. That is what the founding fathers wanted; no state-sponsored religion; no harassment or religious intolerance.

But then came greer. He has denied Terri almost every right given to convicted criminals. He has placed himself equal to the Creator; where BTK is the sole arbitrator of quality of life and where BTK has the right to determine who dies and how they are tortured.

I'm not sure if you came across this in your investigation; I hadn't heard it until last week--but Terri used to eat and swallow in the months after her "accident"... Michael determined that it was too difficult to feed her by hand and had the tube INSERTED.

Thanks for your insights from Down Under. You are correct in that this case will have ramifications across the globe. It is not about Terri's "Right to Die" or even about her "Right to Live" This case is about the "perfect" members of society having the jurisprudence to determine who has the best quality of life and then removing those without "quality of life" from life. This case is about eradicating society of those deemed less HUMAN so the others may DEMONstrate their superiority. This case is about justifying Hitler's desire to create the perfect race. Because once BTK greer succeeds in eliminating Terri, george feel-less will move on to another victim, and eventually eradication will become the norm. It will be accepted, and Darwin will finally prove his theory of "survival of the fittest".

Hitler was a monster who did great damage, but was eventually stopped. BTK greer and george feel-less are monsters who are garnering support before they begin their rampage. Because they start with society's blessing; they will eventually be unstoppable.

Father, forgive them they don't know what they do.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 7:25 AM

Sanderson, you talk aout Terri making a choice. What 26 year old thinks about these types of things?

As to trusting Michael, she probably expected that he would HONOR his marriage vows. Instead, he is living with another woman and has children by that woman. If he cannot be trusted to keep his marriage vows, why should he be in charge of her life? You talk about following the law. Did you know that it is a misdemeanor for someone to have an affair with another person of the opposite sex other than their spouse? WHY wasn't "follow the law" Greer concerned about that?

BTW, tell me, if her husband is so loving, WHY is he denying Terri's right to DAILY reception of Holy Communion? As a Catholic, she has that right. There was a clip of Bobby Schindler asking for daily Communion. To date, her loving husband has DENIED that request. If you are concerned about the law, read the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. From my view, NO government agency may prevent her from practicing her religion per the First Amendment. As a Catholic, she is entitled to daily Communion. Frankly, if Michael continues to deny this, I hope the US Attorney General intervenes. Michael can only deny things like this based on court orders. And judges claim court orders are based on the LAW. Well, the highest secular law in the land is the Constitution. Every single Communion one receives is important. Terri should receive Communion DAILY during what could be her last days. This affects her eternity. How can Michael deny this of her?

As to the swallowing, as others have noted, nurses have said she CAN swallow. Judge Greer denied an attempt for an experiment to see if she can swallow. Thanks to his order, the police are arresting little children. Are you comfortable with this? Are you comfortable that what is happening here in the United States at the hands of a local probate judge is what one would expect to have happened in NAZI Germany? Remember, if she truly could not swallow, then the experiment would prove Michael's claims right. He'd have nothing to lose if he allowed it (if we are to believe him).

Are you comfortable that according to the Schindlers, they are heavily searched when they enter to see their daughter who is dying via court order? How can a loving husband cause this, regardless of the animosity he may have towards them?

Are you comfortable that George Felos on the one hand denies any use of cameras or tape recorders in the room because of so-called "privacy" concerns yet he freely discusses Terri's medical condition in the media? In my opinion, Felos cannot have it both ways. If he cares about "privacy" then he should NOT discuss Terri's medical condition AT ALL. Otherwise, he should allow cameras in there and order that the Schindlers stop being searched.

Of course, if cameras were allowed prior to the feeding tube being removed via court order, it's always possible they might have another video like this:

http://4lifeshaperite.com/rumbles/Conversations_with_Terri.html

Posted by: cw at March 30, 2005 10:14 AM

OT: FL Senate in session now! Hit the phones, hard!

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 10:16 AM

I have PVCs. When I was in labor for 18 hours and finally taken into the operating room, they saw I had PVCs that were aggravated with low potassium.

This is crap. I have PVCs and I would have died by now from starvation. She is as healthy as a horse.

Posted by: Julie at March 30, 2005 1:10 PM

I meant to say I would have died because of my condition being aggravated by the toxins in the blood causing AF or SCD.

I apologize.

Posted by: Julie at March 30, 2005 1:11 PM

Call the Gov. folks. His line is free/

Posted by: sujata at March 30, 2005 1:44 PM

Uhm, they are saying that Terri looks good-that is a God thing. It is also being repoted that the Florida Legislature has gone home for today-we knew that but that today at 11:00 the petition for Terri Shiavo expired and so it cannot be brought back up. Jesse is meeting with the president of the Legistlature right now.

Good news: If the 11th circuit court of appeals agrees to hear her case the feeding tube WILL BE reinserted immediately.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 2:09 PM

They just denied the appeal

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 30, 2005 3:24 PM

This is something I haven't seen discussed on any of the blogs around the web yet, and I think it's important for everyone to know:


Judge Greer says it DOESN'T MATTER that Terri can speak, and that any evidence given by someone who disagrees with the PVS diagnosis is "fatally flawed"


In working on a previous post on my blog, I read the complete text of the Sept 17th 2003 document by Judge Greer IN RE: THE GUARDIANSHIP OF THERESA SCHIAVO--Petition for Immediate Therapy Denied


A few things in that document really floored me.


First of all, Judge Greer says it's been proven that a patient's speaking words is consistent with a diagnosis of PVS. In other words, it doesn't matter that she can and does talk.


Secondly, he says that any evidence given by someone who disagrees with the diagnosis of PVS is "fatally flawed" solely by virtue of the fact that it doesn't accept the diagnosis of PVS.


Finally, he makes some rather odd statements about the testimony of nurses Heidi Law and Carla Iyer, including the statement that their affidavits made in 2003 were evidence "certainly available" to the Schindlers to bring up in 2000 and therefore not currently admissible.


I have a lot more information, including extensive quotes from the document with relevant parts highlighted, in my most recent post on my blog (titled "Judge Greer says it DOESN'T MATTER that Terri can speak, and that any evidence given by someone who disagrees with the PVS diagnosis is 'fatally flawed'") as well as my earlier posts on my blog.


Please feel free to pass this information around--I'd appreciate a link back to my blog if you use my words.

Angela

Posted by: purple_kangaroo_Angela at March 30, 2005 9:22 PM