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March 30, 2005

Jackson Admits Failure in Florida Schiavo Effort

Topics: News

The Rev. Jesse Jackson admitted Wednesday afternoon that his efforts to persuade the Florida state Senate to vote on a new bill to save Terri Schiavo have failed.

"They are convinced that guardianship [of Terri] is in the hands of Michael [Schiavo] and the courts," Jackson told ABC Radio host Sean Hannity.

Source: Newsmax

Pray for Terri.

Posted by tim at March 30, 2005 4:04 PM


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"They are convinced that guardianship [of Terri] is in the hands of Michael [Schiavo] and the courts,"

And that is exactly what the problem is you idiots! It is in their hands because of a failure of justice!

Regarding the appeal denial, OMG! It's like the judges are saying, "How dare you question our authority! Just for that, we're going to kill Terri, and we don't give a flying fark what the evidence is. Now get out of our faces before we sentence you to death as well! Bah!"

..damn, they've based their decision on factors nothing to do with the matter at hand, even a blind man can see that! Bush (either one) if you don't step in NOW and stand up for justice and the US Constitution, you will NEVER have my vote again EVER, even if it means I have to vote for some idiot like Kerry (no offense Kerry supporters, that is just my opinion). I am not alone in this.

This murder will cause irreversible damage to everything the US is supposed to stand for. The entire US should bow its head in shame. No wonder there is such international hatred for everything American. Arrogant a$$holes (pardon my language, but the sheer arrogance and obtuseness of these power-drunk 'judges' is infuriating.. they're not fit to judge a pi$$ing contest!).. all they had to do was day "yes, we will hear ALL the evidence because this is America, and every American deserves a fair trial." but no, they're too wrapt up in themselves to see what they're doing. Bastards.

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 4:21 PM

surfer, i dont think it could have been said any better.

Posted by: delphinius at March 30, 2005 4:25 PM

Does anyone know the exact phrase that is on the Status of Liberty? "Give me your poor..." I don't know the rest...

Posted by: cvaldivia93 at March 30, 2005 4:26 PM

I have worked for attorneys for nearly 20 years and I know that its never truly based on the law...its based on how to get their clients way and to wiggle around the law to get there! Trust me...its all about money and getting paid. Unfortunately someone is dying over it...time to stop playing games and start getting tough with our system. Time to CLEAN HOUSE so this never ever happens to another innocent person again! No one should be denied food or water! PERIOD!

Posted by: So Saddened! at March 30, 2005 4:29 PM

A line from a poem, “The New Colossus,” by the nineteenth-century American poet Emma Lazarus. “The New Colossus,” describing the Statue of Liberty, appears on a plaque at the base of the statue. It ends with the statue herself speaking:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

So where is America for Terri, huh?! :-(

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 4:29 PM

Sirena...We (the true Americans) are here for her but no one hears us! Something is wrong with this picture!

Posted by: So Saddened! at March 30, 2005 4:32 PM

Something is terribly wrong. This whole situation reaks of corruption, manipulation, money, and pride.

Two things I can say:

1. Terri is still alive.

2. If we keep on our legislators, congresspeople, and leaders, and don't let them forget about Terri, we can hopefully turn things around.

Pray for Terri, have faith, and let's continue to fight for her no matter what happens!

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 4:36 PM

I will no longer vote for any of the Bush's ever again. I don't even think I am going to vote PERIOD! You didn't hear Hilary say a word in this. They don't give a #@#$%^^ about any of us. Just feeding their faces.

But BELIEVE me if their little daughter was in trouble this way. Garenteed the government would get involved! They have protection.
I cannot believe this!!! We are no longer in America!
God please help Terri! We are all crying out to you Lord! Listen to our cries. Please give us a miracle. Do not be silent any longer in this case.

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 4:39 PM

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

by Emma Lazarus, New York City, 1883

Where are the leaders in our America - i fear we have been taken over
the death culture wins on two fronts today
the other sad story posted at hyscience on aborted babies after 20 weeks passed today to be able to have anestesia for pain

sound familiar
Terri has no pain - morphine

Posted by: keeka at March 30, 2005 4:39 PM

Nurses have stated in affidavits that Terri was given medication for her monthly periods, because she would moan from the cramps and when she was more vocal would say, "Pain".

A person in a persistant vegetative state would NOT be able to even vocalize, let alone have pain! Why are our judges turning their eyes away from this atrocity that is happening?!!! Are they ALL being bribed? Are they all that unfeeling and calloused?

My god! We don't even treat criminals this way. Dehydration and starvation has been classified as torture! I'm sorry, but I would be willing to bet that if anyone said, "I wouldn't want to be kept alive" they would never say, "so please dehydrate me and starve me to death so it takes anywhere from 10-30 days for me to die."

Give me a break! Judges in America! What is WRONG with you?!!!!

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 4:45 PM

Well I have just cancelled my vacation to Disneyworld for this December, there is no way I want to contribute any of my money. I just wouldnt feel right, this is just to much! Is there no one else out there than can help this woman, Gov. Bush?! President Bush?!

Posted by: delphinius at March 30, 2005 4:46 PM

I don't want it to sound like I am defending the Bush family. I am not terribly happy with them at this time. I did however see a little blurb with Mrs. Bush on her way to Afganistan. She said something along the lines of believing that in a matter of life like this that it was appropriate for the federal government to be involved.

What she meant exactly, I'm not sure. You could read a couple of things into that thought. Either she feels that the government has done all that it could or she feels that it should do more.....

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 4:49 PM

No wonder the world looks down at us if this is the way we would treat this woman but a convicted murderer is feed 3 times a day, warm bed, t.v..

Posted by: delphinius at March 30, 2005 4:50 PM

The Bush's are just talking. They went into Iraq to destroy corrupt government. They are saying they can't do anything about this small town??? It does not make sense. I want to see action!

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 4:52 PM

People seem to forget, what we allow to happen to just ONE person, can affect us all. For those of us who are Christians, we believe that one man (Jesus) had an affect on the world. The murder or saving of Terri can definitely affect us all as well, and it will.

I'm flabbergasted at the court system. Stunned. Sickened.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 4:55 PM

*filled with grief and disbelief*... How does one explain to the children of this nation what we are doing?

Posted by: cvaldivia93 at March 30, 2005 4:55 PM

I am heartbroken.

I am praying for Terri....

What else can we do????

Posted by: Outraged at March 30, 2005 4:56 PM

Pray

Venting is necessary, lest we all explode from the agony of what is going on. However, I want my venting to mean something .. and have effect, so Heaven is hearing from me. Without ceasing.

The Author of Life is on our side. He allowed this to help wake us up to the culture of death, and the spirit of death that threatens our land. Let's pour out our souls to Him. Though this is painful, I believe it has come to light so that we can be used to help stop it.

Dave

Posted by: Dave_MN at March 30, 2005 4:57 PM

Keep bugging Governor Bush. Keep calling him. If Janet Reno supposedly went against court orders (correct me if I'm wrong) to get Elian Gonzales, why can't Jeb go in and get Terri?

I guess I just don't understand politics. :-(

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 4:58 PM

I wonder if those monsters can sleep at night?

This is the most barbaric thing I have ever encountered...in a supposed civilized country!

Posted by: Outraged at March 30, 2005 4:58 PM

I am in agreement with all of you! I am saddened, sickened to my core! What have we come to when a whole government is unable to reach out and help one woman in that country. God forgive us. I am overwhelmed and dying inside, and yet, Terri Lives, so I believe that in itself to be a miracle. I have asked God to feed her with manna from above. I am absolutely amazed at her tenacity - and obviously she does not want to die!! Someone who wanted death would have given up the ghost long before this! I am filled with so many emotions right now.

Please, please pray, pray hard! Pray that whatever has held things back so much will be exposed and rendered useless, whatever, whoever it may be. My heart is breaking for Terri, for her parents, for our land. But amazingly, Terri is still Alive, AND RESPONDING (for those of you who have thought she doesn't)!!!

Posted by: juleni at March 30, 2005 4:59 PM

Yes, we must keep fighting and hammering away at the political system, especially the judges, that could allow this to happen. I am not thrilled with the Bush's in this situation either. They displayed cowardice, to be blunt. However, I'd still vote for Bush again if his opponent is a moral vacuum like Kerry.

I, will however, boycott spending any money in Florida, including DisneyWorld, and even will attempt to buy orange juice which is not made there if that is possible. I encourage everyone to do the same.

Our only defense against this getting worse is continuing to make our voice known without letting up. If Terri is going to die, let's at least make sure she is the last. This sort of thing goes on more often than people know.

Posted by: VicarDave at March 30, 2005 5:00 PM

Good thing the Pope doesn't live here.

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 5:00 PM

This is absolutely ridiculous. Just because Terry is on a feeding tube they want to unplug her and let her starve to death. The pope is on a feeding tube, should we unplug the pope too.

Posted by: joeg at March 30, 2005 5:01 PM

LauraB,

Really. Although I heard the feeding tube he has is a little different, but still.... the parallels are startling... and quite eye opening.

Here, the highest leader of the Catholic faith is having a feeding tube inserted, while a Catholic woman is being starved to death by her husband.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 5:04 PM

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE!!!!!!

QUIT HAMMERING ON BUSH! Neither the Governor nor the President can just just step in and take over. They are NOT kings. Under the federal and state constitutions, the executive branch is absolutely constrained as to what it can and cannot do. Go back to civics 101 and review "separation of powers" and "checks and balances".

W and Jeb are men of deep conviction and faith. They want Terri to live, but they are not and should not be willing to abrogate their oaths of office, in which they swore to defend and protect the CONSTITUTION.

If Jeb were to order the Florida National Guard to shoot the county sheriff so he could march in and give Terri a drink, he'd be impeached and rightly so. And Terri would be RIGHT back in the same spot.

WE ARE A NATION OF LAWS. IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS, THEN WORK TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM. The US Congress cannot ORDER a state court to review a case, or to decide it differently. Nor can it order a federal court to overrule a state court. The Palm Sunday measure contained a loophole allowing the 11th Circuit to punt, as it had to to be constitutional.

I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the cost of freedom.

Posted by: corrie at March 30, 2005 5:05 PM

I'm confused here. Congress gave President Bush the power to send thousands of our own soldiers into Iraq to free the Iraqi people from a dictator. But here in the United States, we have a little dictator named Greer, and NOBODY is taking him down to save an AMERICAN woman who is being murdered. Wasn't it President Bush who said something like "When you stand for freedom, America stands with you"...well, the American people are crying out for freedom and justice for Terri SCHINDLER (I refuse to call her by that scumbag's name), and NOTHING is being done about it!
I am also very upset that the police down there are not doing anything to help. I don't care if they are "just following orders." That's what the Nazis said when asked why they executed millions of innocent people.
Another point of confusion: Where the he!! are all the actors/actresses who were so vocal about our rights during the Presidential election? Why are they not speaking out about this? The only two I have heard anything about are Mel Gibson and Patricia Heaton. Where is Susan Surrandon or Cameron Diaz? I guess because Terri is not "pretty" according to their elite standards, she doesn't deserve their support.
One last thing: has anyone else noticed how fat Michael Schaivo's brothers are? Fat, dumb, and happy they are getting their way, I guess.

Posted by: JIHC at March 30, 2005 5:07 PM

I am so distracted by this whole situation, I can barely function. I desperately wish I could be outside that hospice. This whole situation is so, so incredibly wrong. As a Democrat I am terribly, deeply disappointed in my friends on the left for not seeing what is so damn obvious. How can so many people in this country be OK with what's going on here? And why can't those damn Florida legislators get their frigging act together and STOP this???

Posted by: Sue in Baltimore at March 30, 2005 5:07 PM

My Daughter asked me
What is what's happening
to her ?
Shall I tell her
"She can't ask the Judge
for a drink of water"
He won't hear her.
Terri is Alive

Posted by: lynaqua at March 30, 2005 5:07 PM

JIHC,
Yep. I agree.

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 5:09 PM

demonsurfer - you echoed my sentiments exactly! Very well said.

How incredibly arrogant of those judges. To hold out hope for the parents when their decision was based NOT on the issue for appeal, but on constitutional matters and a chance to blast congress and the president.

Thomas Jefferson warned those in his time about giving too much power to the judiciary. And Judge Birch has the nerve to state: ..."government have acted in a manner demonstrably at odds with our Founding Fathers' blueprint for the governance of a free people -
our Constitution.''

Posted by: LifeisPrecious at March 30, 2005 5:09 PM

Did anyone catch the story on the pope? He was getting a feeding tube through the nose, but they dont think that will provide enough nurishment so they might have to put in a feeding tube, I guess not to be rude but how ironic is that?! Good thing he is over in the vatican and not in Florida.

Posted by: delphinius at March 30, 2005 5:10 PM

"Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error... They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only... If [free enquiry] be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged."
- Thomas Jefferson

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 5:10 PM

All these judges did not do what they were sworn in to do. They ignored evidence. This is criminal. Why couldn't the President have Greer and all the rest arrested??? I don't understand?????????

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 5:11 PM

Something you CAN do - urge your Senators to support the "Constitutional option" to limit debate on judicial nominees. Right now a determined minority can use the filibuster to prevent a nominee - who's been vetted by the Judiciary Committee - effectively requiring an extraconstitutional supermajority just to get a vote on the nominee.

Posted by: corrie at March 30, 2005 5:13 PM

I expect Dr Kervorkian to be fully pardoned after this. He has to be; if not, the US justice system would be blatantly and undeniably contradicting itself.

Since this is a country that condemns the innocent and defends and pampers the guilty, perhaps it's high time we clarify what the US Constitution really is: the greatest document ever put to pen by man, or the manifesto of a racist, Indian murdering Nation written by a bunch of slave owning, money grubbing revolutionary terrorists. (quoted from newspeakdictionary.com)

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 5:14 PM

LauraB, go back to Civics 101. Jeb and W are not kings. They can't just overrule judges or arrest someone with whom they disagree.

Posted by: corrie at March 30, 2005 5:15 PM

I know this very moment in our history will forever be remembered. Something like this will never be forgotten. It so truely sad that Michael can watch and listen to Terri's mom pleading with him to give her back her child, that he had his two children and that all she wanted was hers. How sick,sad,and truely heartbreaking of a situation Michael has created. Peoples lives are being threatened, entire families are being arrested trying to take Terri water, bomb threats, this all Michael's , this is where he has taken this country.

Posted by: delphinius at March 30, 2005 5:17 PM

Ummm according to history and apparently several lawyers who specialize in constitutional issues and the lawyer who fought Kavorkian, Gov. Bush could do things that he has chosen not to.

Yes America is governed by laws but there are three parts to it not just one. That is to keep ballance and to stop these sorts of tyranical situations from occurring.

If the laws were never challenged women would not vote and blacks would not go to school or go freely where they please. Using the excuse "I can't go against a court order" is weak! If you are in a position of authority and you know that someone who is supposed to be under your care is being murdered, the arguement that "you can't go against a court order" means nothing!

As I was writting that, it crossed my mind. In the military have there not been soldiers that have done horrible things that tried to claim they were following orders and were found guilty anyway because they were supposed to do what was right and make a judgement call in such a circumstance and not just follow an order blindly that they know is wrong?

We will all be held accountable for our actions. We will not be able to hide behind the arguement "I can't go against a court order". I guess it just depends who you choose to answer to. Are we afraid of mans laws more than Gods? It would appear to me that we can see the answer to that question quite clearly. I can't possibly hide my disappointment with that.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 5:26 PM

Laws and judicial orders are only legitimate if they are based on truth. The laws and judicial decisions which supported segregation were not legitimate. Neither is a judicial order legitmate which orders an innocent, disabled woman to be put to death.

People of good will are not bound to adhere to illegitimate laws and judicial decisions. In fact, they are bound to not obey such laws or orders.

In addition, both the President and the Governor of Florida have many legitimate means to protect Terri. For example, the Thomas More Law Society in briefs provided to the governor at his legal team's request, point out that there are sufficient grounds to begin a criminal investigation. Given a criminal investigation, Terri could be taken into custody. Would it take a show of force to do that? Probably. However, that is the nature of true leadership. It will require you to stand for truth no matter who else might stand with you or against you. If your convictions are truly deep, they will move you to act, especially on behalf of the defenseless.

Posted by: djw at March 30, 2005 5:26 PM

I just found this link. I'm worried this is where we're headed:
http://www.regent.edu/admin/ctl/uselesseaters/intro.html

Very frightening. And definitely where America is headed.

Pray for Terri.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 5:31 PM

The big question to follow is who benefits :

Michael
The Death movement
felos
?

where does this lead
what is the outcome they are trying to achieve

food and water is now considered medical ?

Pray for Terri Schlindler and her Family

Posted by: keeka at March 30, 2005 5:31 PM

There is an article by Ann Coulter called "Starved for Justice" it is very good. It discribes several incidents when Presidents and Govenors have gone against court orders. It is deffinatley worth the read if you can locate it. I will see if I can find it on the web.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 5:35 PM

I totally agree with you delphinius! May I suggest an ongoing list starting with michael to include every judge, politician, doctor, or anyone who spoke and utimitely contributated or justified the pro death for Terri. This way we can keep track of their futurelife and also not support them in whatever way we can. I will never forget Terri and her family's fight.

Altho I understand the view of canceling Disneyworld trips, I work in the area and need your business to care for my husband.

Posted by: Caryn at March 30, 2005 5:37 PM

Here is a site address for that article by Ann Coulter that I was mentioning.
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20050324.shtml

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 5:39 PM

So just to be clear, many of you believe that there is a judicial conspiracy that goes from a probate judge in Clearwater, FL all the way up to the Supreme Court of the United States to "kill" Terri? That's called paranoid delusion. Instead of inventing conspiracies, why not look at what actually went wrong in this case? For example, Gibbs waiting until the last minute to raise much of the most compelling evidence, long after the determination of Terri's wishes had been made.

For those of you who wish you were outside the hospice, shame on you. There are 65+ other patients dying there, and the protesters are putting them and their families through hell. One young woman couldn't get to her grandfather's bedside before he passed; another on the news last night said her sister (who died of ovarian cancer) was so disturbed by the noise and commotion her death was nowhere near peaceful. Those people have the right to die in peace and dignity. Our prayers are heard from our own homes or churches just as loudly as if we were in front of the hospice.

Posted by: Becky at March 30, 2005 5:40 PM

The 9-2 decision by the full 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta dashed one of the last remaining hopes for Bob and Mary Schindler, who are desperately trying to prolong the life of their daughter, whose feeding tube was removed 12 days ago. A 12th judge did not vote because of illness.

Schiavo is expected to die in the coming days.

In a concurring opinion, Judge Stanley Birch said Congress "chose to overstep constitutional boundaries" by attempting in a bill passed March 20 to force the case into federal courts after years of state litigation.

Judges Gerald Tjoflat and Charles Wilson dissented, with Tjoflat writing that the Schindlers deserved a hearing on the merits of their argument.

Randall Terry, an anti-abortion activist acting as a spokesman for the Schindlers, said the parents plan to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court, which has refused to hear the case three times in the past.

"The attorneys are ... working on their strategy to appeal to the Supreme Court," Terry told reporters outside the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, near St. Petersburg, where Terri Schiavo is being cared for.

In the petition filed late Tuesday night

Randal was also just on fox

Posted by: keeka at March 30, 2005 5:42 PM

Well, remember Schindler's list? He went against the laws and the rulers (the Nazi's) and saved thousands of Jews from being killed in concentration camps. I think people are too scared nowadays to do the right thing.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 5:43 PM

Add Joseph Mills to that list!

Posted by: Caryn at March 30, 2005 5:43 PM

Becky, no I believe the judges are selfish men. They are not doing their job they are being paid for. Their job in this case is to determine whether Terri should be fed, but look at their judgment, they have focused on whether Executive branch should get involved. That is a question for another time and another case.

Posted by: sujata at March 30, 2005 5:48 PM

Troll alert: Joseph Mills

You obviously don't understand that it's not just Christians who are fighting for Terri, there are gays and liberals too, who understand the injustice happening to Terri.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 5:49 PM

Those who think we are all nutty conspiracy theorists, I suggest you go to The Empire Journal and read all of the evidence collected there and then get back to us. It will take you a while and you will acctually have to put forth a little effort instead of sitting back being spoon fed. The facts are the facts, the problem for you is you only think you know the facts.

Uneducated views matter little to those who have spent a great deal of time studying the matter.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 5:50 PM

Hmm, Joseph... a husband has a right to kill his wife legally? No one told me that before I got married! *gasp*
You're full of crap, dude. You're a contradiction upon yourself.

Posted by: Foug at March 30, 2005 5:50 PM

Don't feed the trolls.

Pray for Terri. And keep calling your contacts. It's not over 'til it's over.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 5:52 PM

Joseph and others telling us to get a life

my question to you is what in the world are you doing on here .. we are here for Terri
talk about get a life .. if you dont wish to help what is your purpose here

the hospice situation is sad for other patients there .. but let me remind you it is michael who has all the police and guards so that no one gives Terri an ice chip
He brought this all on - all that the world is seeing and in disbelief of was brought on by one little selfish man

Posted by: keeka at March 30, 2005 5:53 PM

I just went and checked out the 'useless eaters' exhibit, so sickening and heartwrenching, but I have to say that the Nazi comparisons in this country are kind of being overworked, as if that is the only example of evil in the world. Do a Google search on the "Groningen Protocol" (happening NOW). Do you know how many people Stalin starved to death? 65 MILLION. Polpot? around 20 MILLION Mao? 20 MILLION Anyone want to post Darfur websites? Rwanda? North Korea? And we all sit around and point to Hitler as if Evil has only ONE home that we can point to. Evil is everywhere with HIS hand in everything. George Felos is evil. Right-to-die IS evil. God help us if the ONLY comparison our attled little minds can make is (insert thing we don't like here) = Hitler

Posted by: RightAlltheTime at March 30, 2005 5:54 PM

Becky,
The courts have looked over what Greer has said and said, okay. They haven't bothered to admit new factors. That's not a conspiracy-- they're probably just doing what they normally do. However, that does not make it right, fair, or just.

Posted by: Foug at March 30, 2005 5:54 PM

Question,

Maybe I am just not remembering, what exactly happened with DCF? They stood up to Greer and told him that they were going to do their investigation whether he liked it or not. Are they still investigating or did that all go by the way side?

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 5:55 PM

Sorry, totally off topic. I just feel like it's all around us. Makes me want to run for the hills, as if there were a place I could run to...

Posted by: RightAlltheTime at March 30, 2005 5:55 PM

Great advise Sirena! Yes, people, pray pray pray and pray some more.

Posted by: sujata at March 30, 2005 5:56 PM

Get a clue Jospeh - your ignorance is pathetic.

Regarding the conspiracy bollcks - this has been said over and over again, so stop accusing people of being crackpots. I'll spell it out agian:

Terri's case has only really been heard once, by a judge who for some unknown reason chose to seemingly ignore most of the supportive evidence on Terri's parents side, and repeatedly refuses to consider new evidence presented since which, if heard, would leave no doubt that there is one almighty miscarriage of justice happening here.

The following appeals have only looked at whether Judge Greer made errors in his judgement BASED ON THE EVIDENCE HE CHOSE TO ACCEPT. This is where the idiocy creeps in. This is NOT justice. What is required is a re-hearing where ALL evidence is considered in a fair and just manner, not by a judge who seemingly finds the life of another human less value than having to admit his own initial error in judgement.

The latest denial appears by all accounts to be a slap on the wrist for not taking 'no' for an answer the first time. Unfortunately this little 'lesson' is costing the life of an innocent human being. That is not justice.

"Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error... They are the natural enemies of error, and of error only... If [free enquiry] be restrained now, the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged."
- Thomas Jefferson

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 5:56 PM

BTW Jospeh, I'm not some bible-bashing religious fanatic, I'm just someone who has a conscience and I high enough level of intellect to see an injustice when it slaps me in the face.

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 5:59 PM

Becky--Get Lost. At this point, we are here soley as supporters for Terri and each other. We care about our country and fear for it's moral decline. This is not a debate, so take your negativism "south" where it belongs.

By the way, you know what I was thinking as I heard about the Pope's feeding tube? I'm wondering if george feel-less will hop a plane to the Vatican so he can pull it and starve him? I just thought of it all day--the Pope is now feeding just as Terri used to.

As comfort, she is so closely united to Our Savior's suffering. Remember, Jesus went 40 days without food and water. Maybe Terri is offering her suffering for other lost souls? Anyway, I draw comfort knowing she is so closely united to Jesus; and now, it appears, she is also united to Our Holy Father--Pope John Paul II.

Suffering is a grace; let us hold Terri as an example of someone who is a fighter; who lived in hell, but didn't give up. And who had the strength of will to thwart Satan's attacks. We pray for Terri, that Jesus takes her sufferings; but we know that she will soon be united with HIM in glory.

I am grateful for the support on this site; I feel very close to Terri; we share the same name; we share the same faith; we share the same Patron Saints; and I have a brother-in-law named Bob.

To the many unJustices in this Judicial murder; your hearts are as black as the robes that you wear. Black hearts. Dead Hearts. Dead Souls. Whereas Terri will always LIVE as a hero, you will all DIE as cowards. May Jesus have pity on your souls, where ever they are.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 6:00 PM

Caryn, I am so sorry and I do truely feel bad about cancelling my trip, it has been something that has consumed me for the better part of 2 months to plan out. I am affraid this will take its toll on all of us in the long run.

Posted by: delphinius at March 30, 2005 6:03 PM

Ummm a conspiracy is
- a husband who attempts to kill his wife
- she lives and so somebody tries again
- husband claims undying love to get money
- husband stops therapy after recieving money, locks wife away from the world
- husband looks into removal of feeding tube
- wife's family speaks to lawyer to save daughter
- lawyer in question becomes judge in same case
- husband councelled to find death lawyer
- law doesn't support removal of feeding tube
- law changed by lobbying and conections
- law used retroactively
- husbands lawyer suggests lawyer to reprsent family
- family lawyer makes fatal errors
- judge ignores much testimony and facts
- courts repeatedly see case but only view decisions not testimony or facts
- husband, lawyer, judge, media misrepresents case to public
- investigations stonewalled and some closed upon demand of higher ups
- Governement tries to step in
- Courts deny any wrong doing and threaten Government
- Everybody runs away with their tails between their legs
- Woman finally murdered at the hand of her husband and demand of courts 15 years later

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 6:11 PM

Troll Alert!

preach R

We just don't have the time, patience or energy for stupidity!

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 6:14 PM

"preach_R" you can't justify murder by saying they're doing her a favor by sending her to God. If you really were a minister of some sort (which I very much doubt) then you would know that preservation of life is the most fundamental priority of all ...or perhaps you think all murderers should be released from prison, since they were actually doing their victims a favor, right?

Please, use some common sense.

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 6:18 PM

You would think everyone would wake up to the complete injustice that has taken place here. If it can happen to Terri it can happen to anyone of us.

Posted by: delphinius at March 30, 2005 6:19 PM

Becky, Terri should have NEVER been placed in a hospice in the first place. She WAS NOT DYING. Although I am very sorry for the people you described, perhaps they should speak to MS and Felos about those difficulties.

Posted by: LifeisPrecious at March 30, 2005 6:21 PM

I'm going to get a lot of flack for this post, but here goes nothing.

A) Governor Bush has already stated numerous times that he does not intend to run for President, and his brother can't run again, so I doubt any of you will even have the option to (not) vote for them in the future

B) From what I've seen, there's not much else that the Bush brothers can do without breaking some sort of court order.

C) It's been 12 days without a feeding tube, if there isn't already irreperable damage, it's bound to happen very soon.

If there has been no progress in the last 15 years, I highly doubt anything is ever going to improve. The brain cannot regrow itself. Self image issues are what brought this whole situation about (bulemia)....do you honestly think that Terri would want to be seen the way she is now?

I think it's time that people just let the Schindlers and the Schiavo's be. Stop villainizing people because they're not on your side. Michael Schiavo's (and his familys) it quite possibly ruined from this whole situation. I guess ruining a whole able bodied family's lives is worth it if it means saving someone who probably didn't want to be alive in this condition anyways.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 6:22 PM

Corrie:

The Judges "enforce" the laws made by the legislature and the President is the HIGHEST LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER in the US.

Judges do not make laws; judges do not order death by starvation--and greer did order death by starvation. He said no one will attempt to feed her; this is murder. Judges do not have authority over congress and the president. Unfortunately, our current congress and president are as weak as Pontius Pilate; they can't stand up to a piss-ant law-creating judge from florida.

On March 18th, I told my niece who is from Florida that I hope God punishes the state; much worse than the FOUR hurricanes last year. She was angry because her family (My sister) is there. I told her they should move.

On March 18th, I told my husband that I hope God punishes Washington DC because of the black-hearted neosupreme court INjustices. Ironic, that I wish this---I live here....

No, I won't spend any money on Florida--nothing to help that state. In my mind, the "sunshine" state is no longer. Florida is now the "Black-Heart" state. Or, perhaps the "right to die without dignity" state. Or perhaps the "feel-less" state.

The 11th court should be ashamed; they held out hope just to cruely dash it. They're laughing with their black hearts.

And if the bushes were truly men of faith, they would follow God's laws, not greer's. They would take Terri into protective custody. They would take her where she would be safe and they would arrest michael shitavo and BTK greer.

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions..." Well everyone, we are now well on the Road to Hell...

We should not ask "God Bless America" We should ask "God Forgive America" or "God Bless America, please"

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 6:25 PM

delphinius,
That point I think is something that has escaped many people's notice. A Great number of people seem to be seeing this situation in a very shortsighted fashion. So as it does not affect them directly at the moment, what is the big hub-bub?

I am wondering just exactly how long it will take for those sleeping through this matter to notice that they missed a pivotal moment that can't be reversed? Do you suppose that they will ever wake up or just be carefully lead down the road to ......

It makes me think of the story about cooking a frog. If you put him in hot water he jumps right out but if you put him in luke warm water and slowly turn up the heat he just swimms around until he cooks to death!

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 6:29 PM

A) good point, but there's still all the others who voted to kill Terri.
B) yes they can, and supporting articles of law have been given repeatedly on this site in comments on various different entries.
C) agreed, which is the irony of it.

Do your research. There was little or no progress in the last 15 years because Terri was denied rehabilitation by Michael, despite being awarded $1.7million for that very purpose.

See above - rehabilitation. Nobody expects Terri would become 100%, but certainly improvements are probable with rehabilitation. The rest of your comments regarding bulemia and how Terri may or may not think are pure speculation ..are you willing to bet someone's life on that speculation? Because that is what you are doing.

The rest of your comment shows that you know almost nothing about this case. Perhaps you should come back when you're a little more informed.

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 6:32 PM

imdll, it's only irreversible if we let the precedent stand. Remember, slavery was the law of the land, until enough people got on board with the idea that people should have equal rights regardless of their skin color.

My heart is breaking, to think that we will never know if Terri could have recovered even partway. Terri is an innocent who will die unjustly, just like the 3000 people who died on September 11 -- because in both cases we were unprepared for the enemy to strike.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 6:36 PM

no dice,

Michael Schiavo is the one who has forced the issue. Bulimia is a theory not a fact. There was no heart attack, read the records there were no elevated heart enzymes. A bone scan and continued behavior indicates a crime happened and is currently happening. Michael's word and or any of his family's word would not be enough to convict Terri if she was a serial killer. Michael Shciavo is the one who has made all of this an issue. Terri's family loves her, her friends love her and if she wanted to die so badly she would have done it already instead of fighting so hard to stay here!

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 6:37 PM

Hey "no dice"

I hope michael shit-avo and his adulterous wife and their so called "family" suffer every day of their pathetic lives...I hope they have the equivalent of the "scarlett letter" and are recognized for their malfeasance where-ever they go. I hope that people recognize them and point at them and call them MURDERERS every day of their lives. I hope that jodi senseless-zoni has people point at her and identify her as the adulterous co-murderer that she is.

No, I don't give a damn if they suffer. Terri is suffering. Her family is suffering. Terri's supporters are suffering. And most importantly, the Sacred Heart of Jesus is suffering. All of it could have been avoided--michael could have given Terri to her family. They want her. Michael chose this course of action. He will go down in infamy as the "loving husband" who obtained a court order to murder his wife. In fairness, I hope they all suffer for every day they live on this earth; and then--with God's mercy, I pray for their souls that they will somehow come back to TRUTH so they won't have to suffer for ETERNITY.

A lifetime of suffering on earth is nothing compared to an eternity of suffering in Hell. Although it's difficult for me, I wish them the lesser of the evils.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 6:37 PM

delphinius,

I do understand and when you cancel make sure it is recorded because of your disgust with Florida over the handeling of Terri Schiavo. Make it real clear! If enough people do this , the better business agency, hotels, attractions, airlines and travel agencies may take notice. After all it's a lost of revenue for them. I certainly don't have a problem with that!

Posted by: Caryn at March 30, 2005 6:37 PM

Mary, your posting is so true.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 6:37 PM

Troll Alert: no dice

No, no flack, just the comment: if you're not for Terri, you're against her.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 6:39 PM

You are so right imdll. People think this situation does not affect them NOW.... I heard it described as gradualism. First, they accept this little thing, then that little thing, then this little thing, and so forth until BOOM - we're at the place evil wanted us in the first place.

I really liked the story Sean Hannity told today - if I can remember it right (and anyone who remembers it better, please add to it.) There was a flood and a man was in his house. People came to rescue him and he said, My God will rescue me... the waters continued to rise and he went to the second floor. Friends urged him to leave. He said no, My God will rescue me. The waters still continued to rise and the man was forced to the roof. A person came by with a boat and begged the man to come into the boat. The man said, no My God will rescue me. Finally, the water rose so high... the man refused all offers of help.. and he died. Upon reaching the gates of Heaven, he asked God, why did you not rescue me? And God said, I sent you friends, emergency personnel and even a boat!

And God continues to give us the means to make things right. For those of you who have tried, know that you did your best. You were a friend, a helper, and a boat for Terri. Yet there are still those who refuse that help.

Posted by: LifeisPrecious at March 30, 2005 6:40 PM

Mary,
True, I realize that things can be reversed. It is just that it is much easier to prevent something from happening than fix it after the fact. I didn't want to be a wet blanket. It just seems to me that we get all of these people years after something happens who say how on earth did we all get here? They just refuse to do anything while it is happening before thier eyes.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 6:41 PM

I meant michael shit-avo and his adulterous "fiance" not wife...jodi doesn't deserve the recognitian as a wife.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 6:42 PM

Tress (and others)... Why do you think I'm not on your side in this issue? Why can't you accept that people can have different (dare I say more logical) thought processes and still arrive at the same conclusion? I'd venture a guess that there are many, many folks like myself (I've seen a number of them post here): people who believe Terri should not be dying, people who fear for what this means for people with disabilities, people who disagree with the direction this country is heading, BUT people who feel we must work within the system to change these problems, without resorting to character assassination or chucking out the Constitution out the window or making the Bible the law of the land or boycotting an entire state's economy (and thereby costing lives as people lose jobs, health insurance, etc). It takes all kinds of approaches, and to be quite honest, you're never going to effect change if you can't even engage in constructive dialogue with people who are working towards the same goal as you, much less those who have different beliefs and are making the rules. But you ask me to "get lost," and so I will -- it's certainly not my loss.

Posted by: Becky at March 30, 2005 6:43 PM

what, you think what's happening to Terri is constitutional? hahaha. not funny.

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 6:47 PM

I definately am not the most informed person in this case, but I also would never get facts from something as biased as the empire journal.

I think if there were any evidence whatsoever of Michael Schiavo being the cause of Terri's condition, then he would have been charged for it.

I have an honest question for the people on this board, and it's not meant as a troll (I honestly don't know): Do the Schindler's dispute the claim of bulemia?

Again, I'm not trying to be a troll, I can't even imagine what the Schindlers are going through. I just don't think that trying to destroy Michael Schiavo's life is the way to go about things. You mentioned that the bulemia claim is pure speculation, well so is this whole attempted murder stuff, so don't ruin another life based on the speculation you so adamantly oppose.

Also, can you point me to some reading about what was done with Terri in the early years? I heard that she had gone through some rehabilitation but it did no good (on CNN).

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 6:49 PM

The slaves were not freed by constructive dialogue and I'm sure the Littlerock nine are glad that Ike didn't debate the matter to death!

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 6:50 PM

So don't go to The Empire Journal. Go read all of the court documents and testimony and medical documents. Read Michael's own comments, watch him on Larry King. Listen for yourself the contradictory statements made by Felos. Read a little of Felos' book. Read Judge Greer's choice of words in his judgements based upon the facts presented and then form your own opinion.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 6:55 PM

You can read the documents here, or go to terrisfight. There is no shortage of information and official documentation on this case. Thus the frustration you see from those here who can't figure out what is the matter with the powers that be.

Posted by: imdll at March 30, 2005 6:57 PM

Becky:

It's not our loss, either...You are correct that we have laws and must work within them, but greer has ignored Terri's rights and he violated federal law in his order to pull the feeding tube.

And, I'm sorry, but I will never allow Satan's "civil" laws to override God's moral laws.

If the people of florida suffer from the ramifications of this case, then THEY need to get off their asses and remove greer, and their pro-death politicians and prove to the world that they are worthy of our support. Why would I want to spend my money in a state where the governor won't stand up to a Hitler wannabe; where the congress has become a unified Pontius-Pilate/King Herod without the guts to enforce their own laws, and where people have elected these gutless wonders to represent them?

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 6:57 PM

Becky -

Great comments. I totally agree with you. We have a system that works. The constitution allows us to worship as we please. It allows us to EXPRESS OUR VIEWS FREELY ON THIS FORUM.

Let's work for a change within the system. While I think Sean Hannity is an conservative idiot - he made a valid point today. Parents, family members should be allowed to attempt to provide nourishment to sick relatives. Sure I believe that Terry would aspirate more than she would swallow and die of pneumonia. But they should be given the option.

The answer is not to overthrow our government and laws that have worked for 200+ years. Make change where it is needed.

And, once again, look at your own life and how you choose to end it. It is your responsibility to your family to make your wishes clearly known. Or else, you risk the same happening to you.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at March 30, 2005 6:58 PM

I have heard Bobby and Suzanne say over and over and over again their sister showed NO SIGNS of bulemia. Her friends have also insisted that this is true. If you want to get some other info concerning Terri, besides Larry "Michael Schiavo" King and CNN, try some talk radio or fox network shows at night.

I know you'll say they are biased but they are no more biased than CNN, MSNBC, etc.

Posted by: LifeisPrecious at March 30, 2005 6:59 PM

Tress,

I have a simple question for you. What if Terri in fact did not want to live in the state she is in right now? Do you know for sure that she wanted to live?

I realise that erring on the side of life is probably the proper thing to do, but you very well might be calling Michael a murderer and wishing him a life of agony simply for carrying out the wishes of his wife.

I guess we'll never know exactly what Terri wanted. But I guess assuming you know exactly what Terri would want even you've never met her is a good enough reason to call Michael a murderer and wish him a life of agony.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 7:00 PM

Tress -

Unfortunately - there is a separation of church and state. And, as I learned a long time ago, in a Political Science class in a Catholic High School, you can't legislate morality. Which is why women will always have a choice in the abortion - whether you agree with it or not.

And, quite honestly, that is the way it should be. You have no right to impose your beliefs & morality on me and vice versa.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at March 30, 2005 7:01 PM

Posting this *not* to be negative, but to *help* out instead - some verses that came up in conversation: that those evil men in FL are NOT to be trusted. We can instead 'ask at God's mouth', and 'not trust in the strength of Pharaoh' (like Greer, bad legislators, etc.) or go down to Egypt or to its level!


Keep praying! Terri is Alive tonight! I go home to pray and pray like never before, now.


Isaiah 30:2-5 -

Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:

That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!

Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt [your] confusion.

For his princes were at Zoan, and his ambassadors came to Hanes.

They were all ashamed of a people [that] could not profit them, nor be an help nor profit, but a shame, and also a reproach.

Posted by: juleni at March 30, 2005 7:03 PM

Go read this:http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3db.htm

then this:
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/gurdon200503220755.asp

and think about what is happening here with our regard for Life.

Posted by: RightAlltheTime at March 30, 2005 7:27 PM

Tress,

"And, I'm sorry, but I will never allow Satan's "civil" laws to override God's moral laws."

Under God's moral laws, you wished suffering upon the family and children of Michael. Definately not Jesus/Christian like. God is the only one allowed to judge, you must forgive Micheal as Jesus would have done.

Posted by: CriticalThinker at March 30, 2005 7:29 PM

Beth, why are you even HERE? Now you're advocating abortion on a site for saving Terri Schiavo??

I was gonna post a long ranting post but obviously certain people here aren't listening anyway... they're too busy spewing egotistical crap that adds nothing to this site.

Good night folks, don't forget to pray for Terri at 9:00 EST
God bless you ALL!!

Posted by: Foug at March 30, 2005 7:30 PM

Hey Blogging Beth:

There is NO CONSTITUTIONAL SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE! I discussed this last night in another blog--go find it. And, by the way---the Consitution provides for the freedom to express our Religion, Terri has been denied hers.

Sorry you went to a piss poor "catholic" school where you can't legislate morality. Where do our laws which prohibit stealing/murder/perjury/etc come from? DUH---they have their basis in MORAL LAW---those would be the TEN COMMANDMENTS.

No Dice:

I will respond to you because I really think you are sincere vice a blogging idiot. If Terri did not want to live like this, she should have put her wishes in writing. As a practicing Catholic, she does not have the right to choose to remove food and water from her at the time of her death.

And if she really didn't want to live, don't you all think she would have given in by now and died? We all have strength of will and she is surviving a 13 day starvation; How could you ever think she wants to die?

Her family loves her; she is not a burden. Michael won $1.7M after pledging his everlasting love and support for her; then he ordered her to be fed by a feeding tube-because it was too difficult to feed her himself? He ordered her to receive NO medication for any medical problems. He "remembered" that Terri said she didn't want to live like "This". I ask all you people of intelligence, what 26 year old healthy female would ever envision a life on a "feeding tube" I assert that she never said she wouldn't want to live in this state, this is michaels (perjury) testimony. I assert this because it is illogical to attribute the statement to Terri several years before her "accident"; logically, she never would have made the statement, because she would NEVER have envisioned it as a possibility.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 7:36 PM

CriticalThinker, you're right, we should forgive Michael. However, "forgiveness" does not mean "freedom from consequences of your actions." A convicted criminal may be forgiven his crime, but he still has to serve out his jail sentence.

Michael's actions will have consequences. His finances should be investigated thoroughly, since there is plenty of evidence that he will benefit financially from Terri's death. Likewise, Judge Greer and George Felos should be investigated minutely for collusion.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 30, 2005 7:37 PM

In am OUTRAGED - Where to the legislaters get off stating that it's "too late"???
My God, if a disabled person like Terri got "lost/left behind" on an outing in the wilderness, and the rescue workers located her after 14 days, and determined that she was extremely hydrated and close to death... would they say,
"Oh gee, too bad we didn't find her last week, it looks like it might be too late to save her, so let's just NOT BOTHER TRYING"!
Hellllooooo...???

Posted by: Raquel at March 30, 2005 7:42 PM

Tress:

"As a practicing Catholic, she does not have the right to choose to remove food and water from her at the time of her death."

I had no idea that was part of the Catholic religion. Ignorance on my part.

I was also unaware that Terri could eat. I thought that the feeding tube was inserted because she was not able to swallow. Why can she not just eat regularly now that the tube has been removed?

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 7:44 PM

BB and B,

Humility, my friends, humility. It is one of the cardinal virtues and an absolute must for getting into heaven. This thing only is required of you, oh man, that you do the right thing, (something else), and walk humbly before your God. I have such a lousy memory, only retaining the gist of things and about enough words to use my concordance--which I didn't use just now.

That is one thing that angered me, that they blamed Terri for the guards holding up the grandaughter Terri didn't ask for those guards and how very much she probably wishes them gone would totally eclipse the grandaughter's wish. That is adding insult to injury.

Oh, our poor long suffering pope. My thought was that he is sharing this with Terri, but then again have none of you thought that to God the feeding tube may be the umbilical cord. So many have been able to live with abortion because it is unseen, happening in a womb. Now God shows us murder outside the womb. And lo and behold, pro-choicers are reconsidering. God is so remarkable.

Posted by: mary et. al. at March 30, 2005 7:44 PM

"Why can she not just eat regularly now that the tube has been removed?" - no dice

because Michael forbade it, repeatedly.. he wants her dead. allowing it would've lost him the case in the first place.

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 7:48 PM

Hey Tress -

At least they taught me at my "piss poor Catholic school" to argue intelligently and not resort to name calling when I do not have a valid point. Face it - it has been admitted numerous times today. David Gibbs and his fellow lawyers screwed up! And, I am a practicing Catholic but, if I am EVER in the condition that TS is in, I will not have a feeding tube or any other life support measures. I will put it in God's hand that I will die in that way.

And I am not advocating abortion Foug - I am personally opposed to it. It will never be legislated against due to the view that it is a moral not a legal issue.

And, one more thing I learned at that "Piss Poor Catholic School" - we need to accept the opinions of all. That is what makes this country great. I surely do not agree with everything that is said on this forum but I have thoughtfully read all posts and responded where I thought an opinion is warranted. I have done it respectfully as I realize the suffering that most of you are feeling. But, I cannot tolerate those among you who feel the need to belittle those who do not share your views. When this is all over - we still live in this country and have to live among each other. This issue has divided us all - along different lines. Just because I choose to live my life one way does not discredit the way you live yours. But, name calling and personal attacks, whether directed at MS, judges, attorneys, Gov Bush, the Congress, The President or me have to STOP! You will NEVER affect change this way.

So I will never resort to this. If you want to TROLL ALERT me or ban me, go right ahead. I will continue to pray for Terri's peace, that her family may find comfort, and that ALL OF US may learn from this experience.

Posted by: Blogging Beth at March 30, 2005 7:51 PM

Critical:

Because I wish that michael and his family suffer as Terri does does not mean I am being UNCHRISTIAN. As a matter of fact, I think it is much more Christian to wish them earthly suffering and pray for their conversion--thus for their soul.

They have chosen their path; they chose to deny Terri the right to live. They have painted those who support Terri as evil, while the MSM sanctifies their actions. They deserve whatever happens as a result of their actions.

I have stated that suffering is a GRACE; I have my own suffering (which technically could make me sub-human in the court of greer). They should suffer for their actions. I have not judged THEM, but their actions which are EVIL in their intent and their consequences. It is much more HUMANE to wish them earthly consequences and allow Jesus to judge them at their death.

I must pray for their conversion. And I will pray for their conversion, but nothing states that they should not have to suffer consequences. We are all punished for our actions/inactions. They had the opportunity to take the high ground; they chose to ignore it.

As for their illegitimate children; although these kids are "innocent" their parents have chosen to walk an evil path; consequently, they have chosen to subject the children to the same consequences they experience. I am sincerely sorry for these kids, they didn't choose their parents; The "family" I was actually referring to were michael, jodi, scott, their parents, siblings and anyone else who has supported this miscarriage of justice.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 7:54 PM

demonsurfer:

Interesting, I've read a couple of reports of her beaing able to swallow water/juice without gagging, but nothing saying that she'd be able to eat enough on her own to be able to sustain herself.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 7:57 PM

Mary in LA,
He should serve his sentence if he is convicted but to wish bad upon his new family is just vengeful and morally wrong. I'm sure it's because Tress is angry or whatever the case, but I don't think decisions made by such vengeful extremists who want to save Terri's life but wish a bad life upon another is very logical or moral.

We should have a Troll Alert and an Extremist Alert. Without reason, most movements lose their credibility and these extremists must be reigned in similar to how religious extremists in the Mideast must be reigned in.

Posted by: CriticalThinker at March 30, 2005 7:58 PM

no dice, it is in Greer's judgment that Terri should not be fed orally. Can you believe this? and we call this a civilized (?!?) society?

Posted by: sujata at March 30, 2005 7:59 PM

critical, comeon! its ok for him and his "family" to wish (and do their best to bring) death on Terri, but its not ok for Tress to say a few harsh words against this "family"??

Posted by: sujata at March 30, 2005 8:02 PM

no dice: "Interesting, I've read a couple of reports of her beaing able to swallow water/juice without gagging, but nothing saying that she'd be able to eat enough on her own to be able to sustain herself."

yeah, unfortunately she was not allowed, and that was at Michael's demand. That would've been part of her rehab, had Michael not forbade rehab. The fact that she was able to take liquids and soft food orally on the couple of occasions where nurses / family tried it means she was capable of it (obviously), but if she was taken off the feeding tube and fed orally all the time, Michael would not have had a case to kill her. Are you starting to understand why so many people are outraged by this case?

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 8:03 PM

sujata,
gimme a freakin break.. the children don't have a say in this and wishin anything upon them is ridiculous..

Posted by: CriticalThinker at March 30, 2005 8:04 PM

Tress,
Interesting how you label the children as out of wedlock as if they were something sub-optimal. Many children who are adopted are out of wedlock yet thousands of Christians take them in as perfect and their own. Maybe it's because your religious beliefs but religion can be and has been interpreted wrong over the millenias and you can't risk it when dealing with children who need to be raised properly instead of have Terri supporters constantly reminding them what an ass their dad is a bad guy etc etc.

Posted by: CriticalThinker at March 30, 2005 8:09 PM

Demonsurfer:

I've understood all along why people are outraged by this case, I have learnt a lot of new facts about the case tonight though.

My problem isn't with people wanting Terri to live. I would love to see her make a complete recovery. My problem is the means and the lengths that people are taking to do it.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 8:10 PM

no dice -

If you thought of Terri as your sister, I'm sure you'd understand our ferver in the manner. We think she has been treated unfairly, and we're only trying to give her the just treatment she deserves. Not a murder (and that's what is is) by literally being forced to wither away. It's inhumane, cruel, and anything but "beautiful" or "dignified".

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 8:16 PM

"My problem is the means and the lengths that people are taking to do it." no dice

I guess, but when normal means of 'justice' are repeatedly thwarted through apparent arrogance (or whatever it may be) that flies in the face of common sense, people who feel passionately about the value of life are going to be pushed to desparate measures to try and get justice for a fellow human being who cannot do it for themself and whose very life depends on it. I guess the fact that people even care should be reassuring.

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 8:18 PM

Critical Thinker,
You are falling into a trap that the devil wants you to. Don't worry about Tress.
Besides Tress has many biblical points. You need to understand that suffering on this earth is for our good so that we will grow and mature.
Michael Schiavo and the rest need to fall to their knees and hit rock bottom before the Lord can do anything for them.
The Lord diciplines those He loves. Tressa does not mean to be unchristian. It is called TUFF LOVE. Something the Lord does for us all the time. I get plenty of it in my life. That is what makes me know that Terri is in the hands of Jesus right now. I believe He is allowing her to feel His love and keep her from pain. JESUS thank you. He will show us all. And yes...the US will pay for this. Pray for strength while the Lords wrath hits us.

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 8:22 PM

Sirena,

If I were sure my sister was in a PVS (which is under debate with Terri) I would not want to keep her alive by artificial means. Thankfully, my sister and my parents feel the same way, and we all have living wills.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 8:23 PM

The Carter Center has been quiet. Why? They support "human rights". Jimmy Carter is a Christian! Where is his voice? Why is he silent?

I've tried to email them, but not even the courtesy of a response. "A voice crying in the wilderness" ???

Please email them and have them weigh in as friend or foe.

carterweb@emory.edu

If anyone knows of President Carter's email address, please post it.

Back to prayer!

Posted by: Robert W. Smith MD at March 30, 2005 8:25 PM

Critcal:

Simply put--the shitavos have complained that they are being victimized because of their "desire to carry out Terri's wishes"

no dice stated: " Michael Schiavo's (and his familys) it quite possibly ruined from this whole situation. I guess ruining a whole able bodied family's lives is worth it if it means saving someone who probably didn't want to be alive in this condition anyways."

Notice how dice says "able bodied"? Whereas Terri is "dis-able bodied"?

They made their beds, They should suffer the consequences.

I am not an extremist. I am a frustrated person who is watching a horrendous evil take over the country that I once defended with pride.

My point is that if michael and his adulterous "fiance" feel victimized, then they should never have begun the fight. I cannot and will not feel bad because they are "suffering" because of their desire to starve Terri to death. I cannot. We must all accept consequences for our actions. And the consequence for their notoriety is that they are NOTORIOUS. I do not wish them peace in this life; I don't think I am obligated to as a Christian. I believe that if people would take responsibilty for their actions instead of passing the buck, we would not be in the moral-less state we are in. WE ALL CHOSE OUR ACTIONS; WE ALL SUFFER CONSEQUENCES. It's actually healthy. To wish peace for michael and jodi is contrary to what I believe is right. I believe they should have to be accountable for their actions--why would I wish them peace after the way they tortured Terri to death?

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 8:28 PM

no dice- it's your choice. If you want to dehydrate and starve to death, that's your right. It would be sick, but it would be your decision.

But Terri is NOT in a PVS, (more doctors than not have said she isn't), and I don't think she's ever say, "Hey, if I'm disabled, please make sure you not give me food or liquid until I die, okay?"
We think this decision was made for her.

Michael didn't EVEN dream up this "her wishes" until years after he received money for her rehabilitiation. So who are you going to believe? I think his motives are shady and with Terri never having anything written, PLUS being Catholic, I do not believe she'd want to have her life end this way, and be murdered.

Posted by: Sirena at March 30, 2005 8:28 PM

LauraB,
Your God endorses suffering and seems sadistic. My God is a happy bubbly one who forgives all his children for being ignorant. Interesting how everyone has their own interpretation of what God wants on this site. Its frustrating for me because I'd rather have something concrete to follow than interpretations. Plus, its kind of hard to alter the bible these days but in the early days with the first couple copies, it would be quite easy for copy people to alter it. With all the corruption in the world, it's not new, it's always existed. How's one to believe that the Bible wasn't altered and comprimised in the early days.

Posted by: CriticalThinker at March 30, 2005 8:30 PM

God is an angry and jealous God. But He is forgiving. Stop this argueing about Gods and please pray for Terri. The devil wants Christians to fight.

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 8:33 PM

Tress,
"I believe they should have to be accountable for their actions--why would I wish them peace after the way they tortured Terri to death?"

And they will be held accountable, you shouldn't worry about it. Leave the judging to God.

Posted by: CriticalThinker at March 30, 2005 8:33 PM

"God is an angry and jealous God."
How many people here actually do agree with this type of God? Just interested.

Posted by: CriticalThinker at March 30, 2005 8:34 PM

God diciplines those He loves.

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 8:35 PM

Says it in the Bible

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 8:37 PM

First, Jackson's intervention is not too late. Terri is STILL alive going into ther 13th day without food and water, and could be saved if we stopped this execution right now.

I don't think this is a church/state issue. We're talking about empowering family members to starve other family members to death in collaboration with medical professionals. It's just simply wrong and you can only do this if you conflate providing a person with food and water with medical treatment. You don't have to be a religous person to be against that. I mean in terms of medical ethics "do no harm" is a tradition derived from a non-Christian ancient Greek physician.

Posted by: Rick J. G. at March 30, 2005 8:37 PM

Sirena:

Unfortunately, all we have to rely on is the opinions of doctors. There really isn't a concrete method of diagnosing PVS. Just because more doctors than not say that she's not in a PVS, doesn't make it true. I doubt we'll ever truly know Terri's true medical condition.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 8:38 PM

"God is an angry and jealous God."

But isn't envy/jealous a deadly sin? Why would God be a posterGod for a deadly sin?

Your interpretation is borderline insane and extremist. Christian extremists just as dangerous as Michael Shiavo. Look at the Crusades and the body count.

Posted by: CriticalThinker at March 30, 2005 8:43 PM

Critical:

Believe it or not, I thought we were on the same side. And although I have labeled "the children as out of wedlock", I never intended to portray them as "something sub-optimal."

I have had family members born out of wedlock; I have a niece expecting a baby "out of wedlock". My point is that Michael portrays himself as the "loving husband" but he lives in an adulterous relationship with another woman and has two children with her. They are not married, the children are "out of wedlock".

It is not logical for michael to portray himself as the grieving husband and then feel that his new "family" is victimized. I did not accuse the children of anything except being illegitimate. Which they are...He is playing both sides of the fence. Loving Husband, Loving "fiance" and "devoted father" If he really "loved" Terri, and he really "loves" jodi, then he should have divorced Terri, married jodi and given the children a legitimate home.

I'm traditional. I believe in FAMILY--but which FAMILY does michael really care about?

I never implied that the children are any less in the eyes of God. I never implied that they chose their "family" situation. And I really never wished harm on them. They have done nothing wrong; they have not promoted injustice; they are innocent of their father's actions. However, michael's actions may very well bring ramifications upon the children.

God says, "I punish to the Third generation." I don't wish any evil on the kids; they are holy in God's eyes.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 8:48 PM

O man Critical. Please go read the bible. Please. Let God show what I am talking about. Don't get upset and call me names.
Please. I know in my own life, if I put something before the Lord....He takes it away from me or something happens that doesn't feel too swell. He just does it so we will turn back to Him.
He's not mean! He loves us so much that HE sent His son Jesus to die for our sins. That doesn't mean we still don't suffer the consequences. Ya know? Anyway. Back to Terri.

Posted by: LauraB at March 30, 2005 8:48 PM

Tress:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do beleive that both parties have to sign divorce papers. I'm not sure what happens in the case where one of the two become severely disabled. This might be a reason why Michael never divorced Terri, because she is physically unable to consent to the divroce. I might be totally wrong though :)

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 8:51 PM

No dice:

The courts could have awarded a divorce due to the circumstances. Then michael would have been able to move on to his new family and Terri would have been able to move onto Hers. If the courts can legislate murder by starvation, they could have awarded divorce by circumstances.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 8:59 PM

Tress:

They most certainly could award divorce by cirumstances, providing that there is a law that allows them to do so, which is what I was asking.

Also, the courts don't make laws, they simply implement and follow them. Although many people think the courts have been shady with this case, everything they have done has been within the laws provided to them.

From dictionary.com: Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 9:05 PM

no dice:
"There really isn't a concrete method of diagnosing PVS. Just because more doctors than not say that she's not in a PVS, doesn't make it true. I doubt we'll ever truly know Terri's true medical condition."

So without knowing it's true or not, we are to assume it is true and kill her? That's just wrong dude, you must realize that.

"I do beleive that both parties have to sign divorce papers. I'm not sure what happens in the case where one of the two become severely disabled. This might be a reason why Michael never divorced Terri, because she is physically unable to consent to the divroce."

I don't know either, but hell, if the law wont grant a divorce unless both parties sign, yet they will condemn someone to death without both parties signing, then there's something seriously wrong with the US justice system isn't there. ..and why didn't he file for divorce so he can "get on with his life with his fiance and new children" which is one of his arguements for killing Terri? Because then he wouldn't get the life insurance would he.

NTW, is being engaged considered a legal institution in Florida? Just woindering if that legally makes Michael a biggomist and thus he's lose any right as guardian... I'm sure the lawyers would've checked that out though..

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 9:10 PM

Demonsurfer:

I totally agree with the fact that she should not be killed if she is not in a PVS.

I'll be the first to agree with you that the US Justice system is messed up. This is another area that I'm not too informed in (I'm Canadian) but from what I've seen in this case, it's got some problems to sort out.

You raise a good point about the bigomy situation. I'm pretty sure that having a fiance would not be considered bigomy. This might change if his fiance was already considered common-law though...I'm not familiar with how common-law works in Florida. I live in Ontario, and my girlfriend is considered common-law since we have lived together for more than 12 months.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 9:17 PM

LauraB:

You are correct--Satan wants division. Why would we unite if we are arguing over God? God want unity, He does not want us to fight over HIM.

So, I hearby apologize to all those I have offended with my harsh condemnations. I am attempting to judge actions, not individuals.

Bloggerbeth: I am sorry for the harsh language. However, a Catholic School should not make statements that one cannot legislate morality. Our Civil Laws have a foundation in God's moral Laws; specifically the Ten Commandments. And I contend that the fact we have laws against murder, stealing, perjury, and even (believe it or not) adultry, indicates that we have legislated morality. We do not allow individuals to have more than one wife; yet some believe that this is morally acceptable. Our laws are based on morals-we have legislated them. If we did not allow morals to define our laws, then we would allow murder, we would allow people to lie in court, we would allow the illegal confiscation of another person's property...Our laws are based on moral law; allowing some of the atrocities which we see--such as the starvation of Terri--are actions which are contrary to our laws. The courts have violated their Constitutional authority; they are now legislating from the bench. No where in the Constitution does it provide the judiciary the right to define the law; but they have been doing so.

I apologize for defining your school as a "piss poor" catholic school, but as a very conservative and Orthodox Catholic, I have difficulty anytime a "Catholic" organization promotes anything contrary to the doctrine of the faith. The Church promotes moral law; it does not allow civil law to override moral law...and any "catholic" institution which promotes such concepts is guilty of heresay. Forgive me for my anger; It is my greatest vice-I am forever trying to control it.

Critical:

"...And they will be held accountable, you shouldn't worry about it. Leave the judging to God."

As I stated above, I am trying to judge actions. But I am still praying that have a conversion and are not condemned by Jesus during their judgement.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 9:30 PM

Tress:

Law was around a long time before Christianity.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 9:34 PM

I've got to say I agree with Blogging Beth on the issue of name calling. To me, the fiance and kids have nothing to do with MS' decision. I've been having a problem with this site all along because of the personal attacks against not only MS, but also the judges, the Bush's, and the legislatures. Basically a lot of people here have a problem with all three levels of our government. It is true that you cannot affect change with personal attacks against people you do not know. It doesn't help the healing process either. Perhaps, knowing that nothing is going to change (barring a miracle), we can move on and begin healing as a country, and realize we can change things together.

Posted by: Sarah B at March 30, 2005 9:35 PM

Dice:

God was around a lot longer than law.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 9:44 PM

No Dice:
One child is a year old, the other 2 & a half I believe, so this relationship on the side is certainly not new, and surely counts as a conflict of interest.. but of course Terri's parents can't get a rehearing to have things like this taken into account. From a bit of googling, it seems they hooked up about 10 years ago..

From what I can find (at least for tax purposes) only 11 states recognize commonlaw status, and Florida isn't one of them. The only possible loophole is if you are currently a resident of a State which does NOT recognize common law marriage, such as Florida, BUT your common law marriage BEGAN in a State where common law marriages are RECOGNIZED, then you CAN be recognized as commonlaw status even though you are NO longer a resident of the State when the common law marriage BEGAN....
I wonder where these two met.. probably Florida.

Posted by: demonsurfer at March 30, 2005 9:46 PM

Sarah:

I agree that the children are innocent in this tragedy, but I'm sorry, jodi is not innocent. She has taken Terri's place with michael and has supported him in his decision to kill Terri.

In many ways, I am confused by her; how can she feel safe with michael when there are so many questions about Terri's condition. How can she feel safe with michael, while she watches him fighting to kill Terri. Michael's previous girlfriends have testified that he is violent; how can jodi feel safe? And what will she do to protect herself and her children if these accusations against michael prove to be true? Who will protect jodi? Believe it or not, I will be here supporting her if it should ever come to that. I just don't understand her willingness to be part of this terror.

As for critizing the bush brothers and the congress and the judiciary; I think this is logical. We elect our representatives and set expectations of them. When those we trust violate our trust and either promote the atrocity occuring in florida (judges), or refuse to act because they don't want to upset the judges (congress/president), then of course we will call them on their actions.

I see these same people prosecute our soldiers for forcing terrorists to strip and wear dog collars, yet they refuse to protect a disabled human being. Of course I am going to call them spineless. You know Pontius Pilot didn't want to condemn Jesus to crucifixion. He even "washed his hands" of Jesus' death. But the fact remains, he could have stopped it (not really--only in "theory", cause it was God's plan), and he allowed the crowds to dictate his actions. Pilot's sin was not in crucifying Jesus; Pilot's sin was in allowing Jesus to be crucified. The same goes with the bush brothers. They both indicate they are "heartbroken" and wish they could do something, but both are standing by while an illegally elected circuit court judge starves a disabled American to death. Their sin is not in that they are torturing Terri (That is reserved for greer, feel-less, and michael). Their sin is that they are allowing greer to order Terri's execution.

If they had charged Terri with a crime; any crime; she would have been protected. Even those on Death Row have more rights than Terri has been given. There is a great miscarriage of justice happening here; and it is something very similar to the atrocities that began Hitler's attempt to define the perfect race.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 10:03 PM

Tress:

Your God has been yes. But regardless of religion, all basic laws are pretty much the same. Morality exists without religion, as does right from wrong.

All I was trying to point out is that the Romans didn't need God or the ten commandments to tell them that stealing, murder, adultery was wrong.

I definately don't think that religion has any place in law or politics. To further my point, there was a case this week that was declared a mistrial because it was found that 5 members of the jury consulted the bible to help determine the sentence of the defendent.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 10:10 PM

But Dice:

The Romans still had their "gods" whether they were God or not; they still had some sense of what was right and wrong.

By definition,
mo·ral·i·ty

1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.
2. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct: religious morality; Christian morality.
3. Virtuous conduct.
4. A rule or lesson in moral conduct.

The definition does not require morality to be based on God's moral laws, just individual ideas of right and wrong.

In the US, we have a foundation for stating that our laws are based on God's Moral Laws because the US Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are endowed by their Creator, with certain rights. Among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...."

BloggingBeth asserted that one cannot legislate morality. By the above definition, we must legislate morality; all laws are based on a system of right and wrong. In the US, the original Congress consisted of Christian persons who absolutely did legislate based upon their Christian values. The US dollar states "In God We Trust" God is fundamental in the structure of our Country. The Supreme Court and Congress both open their sessions with prayers to God. They pray for Him to Bless them and their decisions.

You may not think that Religion has any place in Law or Politics, but when the original laws and Government of the United States were established, Religious principles guided their definition. From the beginning, this was a religious nation; although the founding fathers always believed in the freedom to worship (or not) as one pleased. Only since Madeline Murray O'Hare created the concept of "separation of church and state" to remove prayer from Public Schools, has this country been fighting to keep an individual's religion out of his decisions. Ironically enough, Madeline Murray O'Hare's son has been fighting to reinstate prayer in the schools.

You may want to remove religion from politics and law, but you cannot remove religion from the person; and people make laws. They make them based on their moral values, which are often based on their religious beliefs.

You may attempt to separate religion from man, but you cannot separate man from his religion. Everything I do is based on my religious beliefs. If I think I have done God's will, I feel good. If I think I have offended Him, I feel horrible. It is my ablilty to believe that I may have offended Him that gives me the strength to apologize to others when I offend them.

If someone were to try to eliminate my religion and forbid me to practice it, they could not eliminate it from my person; they could not remove my beliefs from my heart. Consequently, it is truly not possible to make decisions without regard to one's beliefs. We are subjective creatures; very seldom are we able to truly remain objective.

Oh well, I babble and babble....I apologize again.

Posted by: Tress at March 30, 2005 10:44 PM

Tress:

I appreciate the babbling, it helps me see where you're coming from.

It's fairly evident that you and I are pretty far apart in our beleifs. I could never go through life without thinking that I'm ultimately in control of it's outcome. On the other hand, I'm sure you feel you need God's help for a lot of things.

I'm not saying that you're wrong and I'm right...there's no way for me to prove it one way or another. I would never try to tell anyone that their beleif in a certain God was wrong. Just like I don't beleive it's right to tell someone that they don't have certain choices.

In the meantime, I wish the Schindlers the best in this ordeal and hope Terri finds peace.

Posted by: no_dice at March 30, 2005 11:01 PM

Yes, Blogging Beth, you must really have gone to a "piss poor Catholic school". Not surprising at all, though. I am a convert to Catholicism from Evangelicalism and have spent a long time studying the teachings of Catholicism.

But basically, yes, you can and MUST legislate morality. Otherwise, why do we have laws against murder/rape/theft/embezzlement, etc.etc.??? All those things are outlawed because they are morally wrong. Are you seriously trying to say that if enough people disagree over what is moral, then the choice has to be allowed??

If so, I don't see why you are here posting on behalf of Terri. Most people seem to think what is being done to her is moral.

There is really *VERY LITTLE* difference between killing Terri and an unborn baby. Both are treated as less than human because their brainpower is not up to that of an average human (though here the unborn baby has an advantage, since THEY WILL have normal brainpower eventually; this is a normal development stage for them). Both are betrayed by those who are closest to them. Both are totally dependent on others. Both die painfully and are unable to cry out for help, or to help themselves. Both are as innocent as a human being can be. AND BOTH ARE KILLED LEGALLY HERE IN THE "GOOD OLE' U.S.A." with the support of a large segment of the population.

I can't even imagine that someone wants to save Terri and let the unborn die.

Posted by: VicarDave at March 30, 2005 11:27 PM

No Dice -

There is no "common law" marriage in Florida.

There IS an adultery statute in Florida.

However, Florida is basically a "no-fault" state where divorce is concerned (so adultery is no big deal really) it's all 50/50.

And yes, Michael (as Guardian of Terri) could have petitioned for a divorce and EASILY received one... he just didn't want one, you know - 'till death (Terri's) do us part!

Posted by: Raquel at March 30, 2005 11:41 PM

"Are you seriously trying to say that if enough people disagree over what is moral, then the choice has to be allowed??"

Morals aren't set in stone, they're subject to change according to how a society progresses over time and are applied liberally according to the situation at hand.
If morals weren't subject to change then divorce would still be considered a mortal sin and it would still be deemed immoral to perform an autopsy since it would defy the sanctity of a dead body and medical science wouldn't be where it is now.

The founding fathers may have been religiously inspired up to some point, but that's something completely different from what you're claiming.

Other than that, this isn't about abortion and I'm growing rather weary of people who keep finding excuses to squeeze their own agenda into all of this.
If you try hard enough you can find reasons to link this to whatever else you think needs to be changed in the world but in the end it only serves to distract everyone from the real issue at hand.

Posted by: Vanessa at March 31, 2005 12:20 AM

Oh Vanessa you are not right here. I think you are on the same page when it comes to Terri but you are wrong that this issue does intertwine with other issues. The bottom line of this issue is the right to life vs. the right to choose-or pro abortionists vs pro lifers. The execution of Terri Schiavo -forcing her to die because, she would be alive if she had food- is the biggest win since Roe vs Wade for the Pro Choice camp. The precident that is being set here will haunt our future generations for decades to come. First and foremost is saving Terri-that is the most important issue at the present moment, but do not think for one instant that for the ACLU this is about giving Terri her last wish. This is about money, greed, laws that allow abortion to continue, thus money for those corporations, euthanasia-cloning, embrionic stem cell research-You kill Terri you set precident to kill anyone not worthy in societies eyes of living.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 31, 2005 12:54 AM

This is a **MUST READ** (even at 23 days old):

WHY DO MICHAEL SCHIAVO, GEORGE FELOS AND JUDGE GREER WANT TERRI SCHIAVO STARVED TO DEATH?
By Michael J. Gaynor
MichNews.com
Mar 8, 2005

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_7144.shtml

Posted by: Raquel at March 31, 2005 1:19 AM

Some of you may find these useful:


The GAL (guardian ad litem) Report
(who was hired under Gov. Bush's "Terri's Law" to reveiw the case)
http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

All court decisions can be found at this site:
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

The Original Police Report from the Night of Terri's Collapse:
http://www.hospicepatients.org/poli...vo-collapse.pdf

Link to the Discharge Summery from Humana Hospital
(where Terri was taken and treated immediately following her collapse)
http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/Humana%20Discharge%20Summary%20050990.pdf

Posted by: hello at March 31, 2005 1:34 AM

Your last comments were very insightful, Tress. So much so that they moved me to the bother of signing in at this unearthly hour and saying so.

Posted by: mary et. al. at March 31, 2005 1:50 AM

alwayschooselife:

I honestly do respect your position on pro-life but I can't help but see it as a way of forcing others to live by and conform to arbitrary standards. I personally hear very little compassion in any arguement against abortion or against euthanasia or against gay rights for that matter.

In the end all three debates really boil down to "is it right to force or prohibit someone if what they're doing is deeply personal and not detrimental to society in any way?" You say yes to that question, I say no.

Anyway, like I said. Involving any of that debate into this really only leads to distraction. It has a merit, but Terri's condition isn't the proper forum for it in my opinion.

Unless I completely misjudged all of this, you think Terri's merely disabled and hence should be cared for and tended to (and I agree).

People who side with allowing her to die do so because all they see is a bunch of still functioning organs, but with no mind or soul or consciousness left. And in this case I agree that keeping only a body alive is morally wrong.

Unless you're argueing from the position where as long as there is a heartbeat (figuratively speaking) everything should and needs to be done to keep it beating indefinitely, regardless of any circumstances I really don't get why this is a this vs that issues. Noone in the pro-choice camp is shouting to kill anyone in a wheelchair so to speak.

The real and true issue is that apparantly the medical community can't seem to agree whether Terri still exists to some extent or not. That's why I think she shouldn't be dieing right now and it should be reviewed over and over until everyone can agree on a common stand.

Lastly, for the sake of arguement and because I'm having a hard time trying to understand how you feel: if you knew for 100% certain that Terri was completely and utterly gone and would never be more than a body breathing on its own, would that change your stand at all?

Posted by: Vanessa at March 31, 2005 2:15 AM

vicardave,

You said: "There is really *VERY LITTLE* difference between killing Terri and an unborn baby. Both are treated as less than human because their brainpower is not up to that of an average human..."

If we take what evidence we have seriously (which is tough to do since many here seem to have given in to easy conspiracy theories) the opposite is true. The courts, thus far, have been basing their decisions on the belief that there is enough evidence that stands legal muster to show that Terri's wishes while alive indicate that she would not have wanted to live in her current condition. That is to say, the courts have stood by the idea that Terri, from what we can tell of her wishes before her tragic collapse, wanted this to happen. The courts, then, see her decision as a fully functioning, capable adult, and thus act in accordance with the same rights we give any other patient facing such circumstances.

What makes the Shiavo case interesting is that Terri collapsed into her current state before the overwhelming majority of the nation knew anything about advance directives and living wills, and thus the courts are more involved than they would be otherwise. I've heard here statements to the effect of "if she really wanted this she would have written it down." Well, niether Terri nor most Americans would have done that at the time because it was not common practice (the court case that brought living wills to the public's attenion happened a few months after her collapse). In fact, going with the normal medical knowledge of the day, telling your spouse about your wishes was the best most people did, because it was known that the spouse got to make the call should tragedy strike.

On this topic, I must say that I am absolutely disgusted by the statements of so-called Christians and religious people that Michael Schiavo and his family should suffer, and even more disgusted at the various death threats made against these people. I am fully aware that most people here have rejected this, but I still hear about this every day in the media, and it's horrifying. Culture of life indeed...

Posted by: hello at March 31, 2005 2:20 AM

Vanessa, First let me say you have given me a lot to think about.
Here is my answer....
As long as she was breathing on her own it is my belief that her soul is still with her. If she was asleep she could someday wake-up. If she was awake she could maybe be taught to speak-We just do not know. If she was laying there and was being kept alive by a machine breathing for her-that would be different. But she was not. Her feeding tube was not keeping her alive-just giving her the same food and water we all need to stay alive-that is what is so disturbing. The ACLU is behind Michael on this one- trying to protect Terris right to die. The problem is that as many freedoms as we americans like to have-the right to die is really not ours to have-It is Gods and Gods alone. I am thinking you are not going to agree with me on this one-that is okay there is not much scientific proof behind it. Anyway, for pro choicers This is a big win for them-it all boils down to the same simple fact-those unwanted, or not worthy of life in societies opinion can and should be is put to death.

Posted by: alwayschooselife at March 31, 2005 3:16 AM

I don't fully agree with you, but I can respect your beliefs for thinking so and that doesn't make them any less valueable.

We both hold a different view on the world and as long as there is an understanding for each other, things will work out.

Posted by: Vanessa at March 31, 2005 4:25 AM

Whoa, let's back it up here.

This Website is called "Blogs for Terri". Its sole purpose is to help Terri. Most of us who are here want to do that.

If you have not read the facts of the case beforehand and made up your mind in Terri's favor, why are you here at all?

Some of you ----- no dice, Critical Thinker, Vanessa, Blogging Beth ---- seem to be trying to hijack the conversation onto other topics. You're asking questions which you should have researched before you signed in to a blog called, "Blogs for Terri". You should have read the articles and documents at Terri's Fight, before signing in here.

I repeat, this blog is for those who ALREADY support Terri; hence the name----"Blogs for Terri".

This blog is not about the Constitution, or the Bible, or religion, or morality, or tolerance for differing opinions, or the civil structure of government. All of those things are having an effect on Terri right now, but we're not here to discuss them, except as they affect our purpose of supporting and rescuing Terri.

For those who claim they have a right to express their opinion-------this Website is not public space. It's private, and paid for by private money. It is dedicated to the narrow goal of helping Terri to escape her court-enforced dehydration and starvation.

If you would like to discuss these other, broader topics, I'm sure there are plenty of blogs that do that.

But, right now, on this Website, your thoughts, opinions and feelings are distracting us from our main purpose.

But, you knew that, didn't you?

[By the way, I'm so sick of people linking to and citing from this Website called "Abstract Appeal", I could just scream. We've only had about fifty thousand "kill Terri now" folks "inform" us of that Website.]

Posted by: Huntgoddess at March 31, 2005 5:23 AM

The list above should have included Sarah B. and hello, and maybe a few others, too.

None of you is trying to help Terri.

Posted by: Huntgoddess at March 31, 2005 5:31 AM

So, the question is, what do we do now, to save Terri?

I have written to my bishop, and my Catholic govenor, Jim Doyle. Our bishop is very upset about Terri. He spoke of her at all three Masses of the Triduum.

I will write back to my federal legislators again. I've written to Jeb three times already, but it can't hurt to do it again.

What about the attorney general?

After all, it was Janet Reno, the AG at the time, who defied the 11th circuit's order by sending federal marshals to get Elian Gonzalez.

Perhaps we should write to the attorney general of the U.S., and or Florida?

Posted by: Huntgoddess at March 31, 2005 5:37 AM

Of course, it was the Catholic Kennedy brothers, in the '60's, who sent in federal marshals to deal with the "moral issue" of voting rights being denied to African-American voters.

I put moral issue in quotes, because they were the ones who defined it so. At the time, it was "the law" and defined by court order and statute.

Posted by: Huntgoddess at March 31, 2005 5:41 AM

Huntgoddess:

instead of running around crying wolf whenever you notice someone who according to you isn't worthy, try actually reading what people type.

I'm not sure exactly how me saying that Terri should *not* be laying there right now, dieing, disqualifies me?
It does say 'in support of Terri's life' and not 'be pro-life or be gone'.

If you don't like what someone says, ignore them, if you think they're sincere and have a flawed logic or are missing facts, point that out but don't launch any personal attacks. Everyone's feeling helpless and emotional right now, you're hardly alone in that.

Posted by: Vanessa at March 31, 2005 6:18 AM

It's difficult for me to write this, having heard that Terri has just died. I, for one, am glad that there have been so many pro-choice people here. I hope that they will start to see how the unborn baby is really in pretty much the same position as Terri was, and how we have to protect the life of all human beings. Once you allow exceptions who are not considered fully human, it ALWAYS grows and grows to include other classes. We've started to chip away at the beginning of human life with abortion, and now we're chipping away at the end of life with euthanasia, and chipping away at the brain damaged with plain ole' murder. Who will be next? Whether we start to value and protect human life will determine whether we survive as a culture in the long run.

Vanessa said "morals aren't set in stone, they're subject to change..." No, they are not subject to change; that is just the point. Killing an innocent human being is always wrong.
The teachings on divorce haven't changed either. You have been misled about that. Some minor things can change with changing circumstances, but the basic moral laws never change.

She also said that it boils down to whether "it is right to force or prohibit someone if what they are doing is deeply personal and not detrimental to society in any way". She is right about that, but wrong in the application. There is NO IMMORAL ACT which is not detrimental to society in any way - NONE.

Abortion, among other things, cheapens the value of human life subtly in everyone's eyes, and tells us we can decide whether we "want" someone or get rid of them if we don't. Homosexuality cheapens sex and marriage. So does free and easy divorce. The family is the foundation of society and all of these sins are not private; they tend towards the destruction of the family. Every immoral action has a bad effect on society.

Posted by: VicarDave at March 31, 2005 10:18 AM

I want to comment on a few things I have read here, and things I have heard and figured out throughout all of this.
First, Michael Schiavo's brother wants an APOLOGY from the Schindlers because they have called his brother, Michael, a murderer. I suggest the Schindlers do NOT apologize. "WE", "THE AMERICANS WHO SUPPORT TERRI", call Mr. Michael Shiavo a murderer, sadistic, selfish,controlling, freak.
There is alot of money involved, therefore, why wouldn't Michael want her dead? She no longer had anything to offer him that meant anything to him or anything that he understood. He doesn't know love, so what else was there? For him, nothing. Secondly, I want to say, don't ever think Terri won't be back. She will be. Spirits live forever, and spirits know retribution. Michael Shiavo, Judge Greer, and everyone else involved will get what is due them.
Third, I want to say regarding JODI, Michaels' wife to be. It goes to show EVERYONE, if you think about it, that SHE also has NO CONTROL over Michael, as any decent, strong fiance, would have never let any man get this far. If she was filled with grace, strength and true conviction, she would have led him away from all of this, and persuaded him to let Terri be with her family. So she has no more control than Terri did over this sick man. Psychologically, Michael is a sick man, and everyone KNOWS George Felos is sick by the way he commented on the lies he told about Terri in his news briefings.
There are three very significant issues involved in this case which led Michael to his decision:
1. MONEY
2. GUILT
3. MENTAL ILLNESS

The courts kept full control the entire time. Control is a form of abuse, and many men have it. It is an emotional high. So technically the domestic violence issue followed her right through the courts. The intimidation started in their home, and Michael followed through with it right until the end, and he STILL has control. Let him do what he wants. Terris' spirit will never be controlled. She's free to go where she wants now, and I am sure when she's done comforting her family, she'll be on to more resolving issues like Michael Shiavo's selfish ways. Selfish, sick and damning. He'll never have peace. Terri will.

Posted by: IMJ at April 2, 2005 1:13 AM