I don't know whether I am more apalled by the audacity or the stupidity of this move...

Posted by: Crystal Clear at March 18, 2005 1:52 PM

This is unbelievable. The courts have denied new testing for years. Yet a couple of weeks of tests would have determined definitively what Terri's state of being is. This couldnt' have been solved ages ago. Why does the court system want her dead so badly? Why do we have courts that put so much emphasis on process and procedure that they don't pursue the truth. Finding out the truth from unbiased neurologists would have taken only a couple of weeks not the years this has been in Greer's courtroom. Yet they'd rather kill someone than find out the truth. I'm appalled...and sickened.

Posted by: Ceci at March 18, 2005 1:56 PM

Talk about judicial tyranny. Can we get these judges impeached now?

Posted by: Beautiful Belgian Babe at March 18, 2005 1:58 PM

Ceci-
Because process and procedure is how it should be. The courts should be like a machine. Congress makes the rules, you elect representatives to make those rules. Congress would be stupid to make a Federal law, for the purpose of one person. Should neurologists know something, there would have been a leak to her parents and it'd be all over the air. Kinda ironic how the one thing that could save Terri and regain brain function is stem cell research like the stuff done at University of Wisconsin-Madison where they turned stem-cells into neurons, but that's against the dogma of pro-life people.

Posted by: Joe at March 18, 2005 2:03 PM

Where are we at with that petition to impeach Judge Greer?

Posted by: Beautiful Belgian Babe at March 18, 2005 2:06 PM

Beautiful Belgian Babe-
They can't get impeached because they are acting according to the law. They are following what the law says. Should the decide to NOT follow it (ie. keep feeding tube out once the case was discussed and a decision made), then they would be up for removal. Don't blame the judges for not ignoring the laws.

Posted by: Joey at March 18, 2005 2:09 PM

Can't he be arrested for contempt of a federal order? Is there now some federal offense attached to his move? I think people should also be calling the Hospice to warn them that there are federal consequences for them if they act. If this is somehow investigated even without a victim, they just may be involved in a a later declared act of murderous abuse.

Posted by: chris K at March 18, 2005 2:10 PM

babe,
joey is right. thats why everyone is trying to get congress/senate to pass a law. the judges are acting to what written law is. focus the petition on congressmen.

Posted by: SaveTerri at March 18, 2005 2:11 PM

I'm talking about the judge disregarding a Federal subpoena. Also, Judge Greer has broken a bunch of laws, which have been discussed on this blog and elsewhere.

Posted by: Beautiful Belgian Babe at March 18, 2005 2:11 PM

JOEY:

It is NOT pro-life dogma. There ARE pro-choice liberals who SUPPORT TERRI.
See this post: http://lesbiencestmoi.blogspot.com/2005/03/liberals-dont-support-their-cause-by.html

Posted by: Beth at March 18, 2005 2:13 PM

OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!
JUDGE GREER IS NOT GOD AND HIS ARROGANT DETERMINATION TO SEE TERRI DEAD IS BEYOND ACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!
THIS MAN NEEDS TO BE REMOVE FROM THE BENCH AND THROWN IN JAIL WITH MICHAEL SCHIAVO FOR CONSPIRICY TO MURDER!!!!!!!!!

My phone and fax machine hasn't seen this much action in years! I’ve been faxing duplicates upon triplicates of requests for the Florida and US legislators to act immediately and save Terri's life. I will keep on praying and refuse to give up!!!

Posted by: MoFiZiX Gr4FiX at March 18, 2005 2:13 PM

chris
that's why the judges ordered it stopped at first, most likely after looking at all the angles, they noticed that a supoena does not make a federal court order invalid, and the supoena must be acted on within the court order. (ie. if you're ordered to jail, congress cannot supoena you out, they can get videotape of you from jail and present it but they can't let you out without another court order) in terri's case, congress can't get a court order to keep it in because judges can't legislate from the bench and must follow laws, which give the husband control unless he divorced her.

Posted by: Joey at March 18, 2005 2:17 PM

Judge Greer is probably worried an investigation by Congress will expose just how badly he BOTCHED this case up.

Posted by: Ginny at March 18, 2005 2:21 PM

Beth-
I wasn't refering to pro-life in the case of abortion. I was making the correlations that a lot of people who are against Stem Cells Harvesting and Research (from fetuses etc).. Are for Terri.. Yet to save Terri, you would need to develop Stem Cell research to grow and implant neurons (which are remarkable plastic and can easily work to replace gaps caused by dead neurons)..
Ironic huh ;)

Posted by: Joey at March 18, 2005 2:21 PM

Joey - not ironic at all. Its a stretch. The only way to "save" Terri is to keep feeding her. How hard is that to understand?

Posted by: Teri J at March 18, 2005 2:22 PM

In this case Judge Greer has acted as both judge and jury. WHen there is no jury, the judge also determines the facts. It may be clear that he is following the law procedurally. However, he has not allowed any facts to be presented or evaluated that may contradict his prior findings. This is a sheer act of hubris and arrogance. When affidavits were presented from 33 doctors last week, including 15 board certified neurologists, that swore Terri did not receive proper evaluation, Judge Greer would not permit further evaluation. When evidence was presented that showed prior abuse allegations against Michael Schiavo, Judge Greer did not give weight to that evidence. When the original attorney for DCF went along with Judge Greer's analysis, he was not excused because he had contributed to Judge Greer's campaign. There was no finding of conflict of interest. When legislators passed laws that provided feeding tube removal should be included when withdrawing life support, it was no problem that George Felos found those legislators positions on the board of directors of Terri's hospice. There are many instances where Judge Greer or other actors in this scandal should have been recused because of conflicts. Procedure is one thing...fraud is quite another.

Posted by: lourdes at March 18, 2005 2:23 PM

Judge Greer has broken the law numerous times. He has not required Michael to file a guardianship plan.

Terri's placement in hospice and her placement on Medicaid were both in violation of state law.

And, as I recall, the defense at Nuremburg was that they were simply obeying orders, following the law. There is a higher law, and any judge who condemns an innocent person to death cannot say he is absolved of guilt because he was just following the law.

Posted by: DeputyHeadmistress at March 18, 2005 2:24 PM

Well said, lourdes! Thank you!

Posted by: Teri J at March 18, 2005 2:24 PM

You speak of stem cell research. Embryonic Stem cells are immoral to use because they kill babies to get them, and to that the fact that nothing good has come from them and . . .

Adult stem cells work, and have worked wonders, its a media cover up much like this one.

Posted by: Jesse at March 18, 2005 2:27 PM

The ultimate goal is not to just have Terri live but to RECOVER and Rehabilitate. Neurons don't grow well. Therefore, stem cells would help her. But most supporting Terri, don't support that. and that is Ironic. (I support Terri but support stem cells) I also think it's overboard to send hundreds of faxes from the same person. If an office gets 1000 faxes from 3 people. It's still 3 people.

Posted by: Joey at March 18, 2005 2:28 PM

don't decide where you stand without knowing facts.
and the only people who know the facts are the people involved.
try finding real news instead of rumors.
anyone interested in this case should visit this site.

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

how hypocritical is it to prevent a natural death?
of course this is hard on her parents - but it's also hard on her husband. anyone who can't see both sides of the argument and imagine themselves in her position, shouldn't form a judgement.

Posted by: itismetalking at March 18, 2005 2:28 PM

Where is the president in all this??!! With his right-to-life agenda, for once let him be useful!! I'm praying for you Terri! I lost my Dad the same way! His name, ironically was Terri too.

Posted by: Wendy at March 18, 2005 2:28 PM

Joey,

Your ignorance of stem cell research is appalling. To date, embryonic stem cells have contributed to ZERO useful applications in medicine. By contrast, adult stem cells have provided useful in treating over 50 diseases/conditions. Don't blame this all on pro-lifers who refuse to allow aborted babies to be harvested for science. Embryonic stem cells have gotten us absolutely nowhere. Why not concentrate on adult stem cells or cord blood stem cells that are actually providing useful information and treatments?!?! See for yourself at http://www.stemcellresearch.org/facts/treatments.htm

Posted by: Jennifer at March 18, 2005 2:29 PM

I wonder... If I understand correctly, the judge's order permits - but does not require - the tube to be removed. Nor does it forbid its reinsertion if removed. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

Would it be possible for morally courageous workers at the nursing home to keep Terri fed and hydrated despite the judge's ruling?

Posted by: corrie at March 18, 2005 2:33 PM

Corrie - they are also removing the feeding port this time, which would prevent the tuve from being reinserted later, as it was before.

Posted by: Teri J at March 18, 2005 2:34 PM

The abstractappeal site claims to be factual, but is not. For facts, see terrisfight.org

Posted by: Teri J at March 18, 2005 2:35 PM

Does anyone know what time this order will go into action?

Posted by: Jasmine at March 18, 2005 2:37 PM

Jesse-
You're my case-in-point. Thank you. :)

P.S. Neurons can't be formed from stem-cells unless they are given a shock at within a specific time interval. Read scientific articles from New England Journal of Medicine or Science (extensively peer reviewed). Don't read what bloggers write. :) Also, good job using "baby killing" it really helps make stem cells extreme and edgy! Unfortuantely, the world of science must go ahead whether in the US or abroad and whether you want to be old-fashioned or not, young scientist from all over the world are amazed at the capability of a cell that can turn into ANYTHING. At one point, keeping the dead alive was not natural, but the edgy people pushed the boundaries and hence why Terri is alive.

Lourdes-
You are right. He does act as judge and jury which is what he's supposed to do, UNLESS the defendant asks for a jury trial (which most lawyers will ask for). The problem is, Terri's husband is in charge and has told the lawyer what he wants and so the lawyer isn't gonna go against his wishes or he loses his job. Therefore, while unfortunate, it's still within the law. But you do have many valid points.

Posted by: Joey at March 18, 2005 2:38 PM

I am not a Republican nor a Bush voter but I just called the WHITE HOUSE and they were GREAT. I have gotten used to people rushing me off the phone on this issue but the person at the White House actually took time to record the substance of my comments on the President's obligation to the Constitution in this matter and even to note the correct chapter and verse when I read her Proverbs 24:11-12! This gives me hope.

Ask our chief executive to uphold divine and constitutional law!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Elizabeth at March 18, 2005 2:38 PM

Let this poor woman die with dignity and in peace! Anything else is selfish!

Posted by: me at March 18, 2005 2:39 PM

Jennifer - stem cell research is not about the disabled. its about abortion-on-demand. abortion advocates have arranged a scratch-each-others-back relationship with the disabled communinity.

similarly, for michael schiavo, this is not about terri's right to die but rather his right to move on with this life. he's finding mutual support with euthanasia advocates.

Posted by: Teri J at March 18, 2005 2:40 PM

Joe...you said thusly.........

"Because process and procedure is how it should be. The courts should be like a machine. Congress makes the rules, you elect representatives to make those rules."

You should know better. That's how things are done now, but not how it should be. Fixation on process and procedure allows the truth to be thrown out the window. That appears to have been done in this case. Also, I've called and written congress on this issue...both Florida and the US congress. Apparently they're not interested in constituent opinions. Most elected officials appear to live out their terms as what I'd term "benevolent dictator". We most certainly *appear* to have a representative government, but that's not how it really functions.

"Kinda ironic how the one thing that could save Terri and regain brain function is stem cell research like the stuff done at University of Wisconsin-Madison where they turned stem-cells into neurons, but that's against the dogma of pro-life people."

Hmmm, please don't put words in my mouth. I spent 10 years in biochemistry and cell biology research and did vast amounts of tissue culture.

It must be nice to be so sure that our courts always get to the truth or are just in their rulings. I don't believe that for an instant. And when life and death is at stake, I cannot sit idly by and not take action.

Posted by: Ceci at March 18, 2005 2:40 PM

DIGNITY????? Writhing in pain from starvation is DIGNITY?????

Posted by: Teri J at March 18, 2005 2:43 PM

Beautiful Belgian Babe -

Adult Stem Cell Research is maybe what you're talking about and pro-lifers are not against that. There is a BIG difference.

Posted by: Catherine at March 18, 2005 2:43 PM

Get back over to the main list. I'm sick over this.

Posted by: Teri J at March 18, 2005 2:45 PM

Jennifer,
Give me a NEUTRAL site not a biased one. Of course that one will show only the facts for non baby killing stem cells but it never critizes itself. Fetal stem cells won't be used in medicine because of the activist outcry against it. But in due time, walls are broken, and the unacceptable becomes acceptable. Look at history. No Stopping it.

Plus, yes, adult stem cells have helped in something, but there's interest in how fetal stem cells will work. They aren't the same so the possibilities are different, including curing different diseases that adult stem cells can't.

P.S. I saw a great article (you seem to be against abortion). It talked about how pro-lifer/pro-choicers are working together. Abortion will probably never be eliminated but in the meantime, both groups can work together to nearly eliminate the amount of abortions NEEDED via abstinance, free condom, better quality of life, etc..

Posted by: Joey at March 18, 2005 2:46 PM

Joey, go take a look at the latest hedline. I want to hear your comments on that one.

Posted by: Teri J at March 18, 2005 2:51 PM

Joey,

You find me a site that shows what tangible contributions embryonic stem cells have contributed to medicine. The score thus far is 58-0 in favor of adult stem cell research. Since adult stem cell research has actually contributed to medicine, why not focus on it?

Posted by: Jennifer at March 18, 2005 2:51 PM

I just called the offices of Sens. Boxer and Feinstein and Rep. Harman to urge their support, and I YELLED at Rep. Henry Waxman's call-taker regarding his appalling statement (Google for his Web site). I let him know that if he lets Terri die for political reasons, I will know that he supports nothing less than the killing of disabled people when they become "inconvenient," and that I will remember that when he comes up for re-election.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 18, 2005 2:53 PM

BTW, Rep. Waxman's office didn't know that the order to pull the feeding tube had been reinstated. Recommend mentioning that when you make your calls.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 18, 2005 2:54 PM

Ceci-
I am biochem as well, but I guarentee you I'm a better biochemist but enough about that. :)

As for representative government, I don't think it's perfect but it runs how it runs. I personally don't think government should even be involved in our lives as much as they currently our. The Terri matter should be between husband and family. Since she married her husband, she put her trust in him. She was born into her family so we don't know if she loved them as much as her husband. I try to never get morals in the way. (ie. I could care less if person A kills person B as long as it's not me.. it helps me lead a peaceful life instead of being an activist constantly complaining)

Posted by: Joey at March 18, 2005 2:54 PM

"Me", don't you get it??? Terri is NOT "dying"! She's brain-damaged, but not "dying".

People (and animals, for that matter) who are in the end-stages of terminal illness naturally refuse food and water. Terri is brain-injured, but stable. Starving her will be murder, plain and simple. Would you really kill someone who is alive, but just happens to be disabled?

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 18, 2005 2:57 PM

Jennifer-
Do you not realize how stupid your comments are? At one point, adult stem cell research was not around. It was regular cell research:adult stem cell 1000000000 : 0 . Yet there's contributions that EVERY cell can make. Some people have an interest in the younger more versatile version of the adult stem cell. You cannot tell a researcher, Here.. study this more boring thing instead of being a pioneer in another brand new field. The curiousity to make a great revelation is too much. Yes, we can temporarly prevent things from happening but on a large scale, look at history, everything HAPPENS. There is no stopping the machine that is Science. Someone will have an interest in every single thing from ants to Mars to stem cells. Do you not agree?

Posted by: Joey at March 18, 2005 3:00 PM

Joey: "I try to never get morals in the way."

Then what are your morals? Do they really include approving the death of a woman who has committed no crime and done nothing wrong? As I said above, Terri is not "dying". Her life is in no danger, except from those very persons who should be protecting her life: The courts of law and her husband.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 18, 2005 3:00 PM

Can we stay on topic here? A woman is in imminent danger of being killed. Stem cells have nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Mary in LA at March 18, 2005 3:02 PM

***PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS***

"Pimp": open your yap again, smartass, and your comments will just continue to be deleted. Be an idiot on your own bandwidth.

--The Management™

Posted by: Beth at March 18, 2005 3:18 PM

Joe... you said...

"I am biochem as well, but I guarentee you I'm a better biochemist but enough about that. :)"

I wasn't comparing...just stating by example that I may not think what you think I do about stem cell research.

"As for representative government, I don't think it's perfect but it runs how it runs."

Ahhh...apathy. Now I understand.

"I try to never get morals in the way. (ie. I could care less if person A kills person B as long as it's not me.. it helps me lead a peaceful life instead of being an activist constantly complaining)"

Hmmmm further clarification of the apathetic life. If you don't like to get involved and choose to lead a peaceful life, then why are you here or even bothering to read Terri's continuing saga? You'll most certainly not convince anyone here to change their minds...and being a troll most certainly doesn't sound peaceful.

I'm not the type to sit around a shrug my shoulders when our courts and legislature are more hung up on process than finding out the truth. You may call that complaining, but that's just your opinion and not one that I share.

I know there are people all over the world dying heinous and unfair deaths today. That doesn't mean that it's ok that Terri will do so also. I don't know who those people are, but I *do* know about Terri. So I can take action on the one case that exists in "my own back yard".

Posted by: Ceci at March 18, 2005 3:23 PM

This is so sad.

I can't believe this is happening. This is unbelievable, really.

http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/03/the_latest_on_t.html

The Human Argument For Terri:

http://www.willisms.com/archives/2005/03/the_human_argum.html

Posted by: Will Franklin at March 18, 2005 3:23 PM

Judge Greer's irrational reaction today has convinced me that this is his desperate attempt at covering up an even bigger scandal--collusion among officials in all three branches in Florida. Terri Schiavo is just the tip of that iceberg. There is big money involved. On March 13, The Empire Journal has published an article titled "Schiavogate ... The Big Coverup ("http://www.theempirejournal.com/0313055_schiavogate_the_big_cove.htm). Please particularly pay attention to the last section "Court Required to Do Annual Review". After the Journal published that article, its web sit was hacked. Several Schiavo articles were removed, including the Schiavogate article and so were a number of links to past articles in the Schiavo archive. The hacker(s) are still trying to interfere with/shut down the operation of that web site (http://www.theempirejournal.com/we_are_not_going_to_be_forced_ou.htm). Many articles there must have hit "a major nerve in uncovering vast corruption".

The Empire Journal is still working very hard to restore its site. If the above two links do not work, please go to its main page, www.theempirejournal.com.

Governer Jeb Bush had better exercise his executive authority empowered by the Constitution of the U.S. and of the State of Florida to save Terri's life. He should also clean up this collusion/corruption mess in his own state.

Posted by: Miranda at March 18, 2005 3:28 PM

For future reference... (I pray this option never need to be used)

Michael Schiavo intends to cremate Terri immediately upon her death. Please see http://www.co.pinellas.fl.us/forensics/policy/policystatement.htm#CA . The Medical Examiner must approve all such requests. If Terri is killed by Michael and "Judge" [and Jury] Greer, then everyone must contact the Medical Examiner and demand an autopsy to discover not only the immediate cause of death, but the proximate cause of death.

Even Forensic Pathologist Michael Baden publicly stated that he believes that her original injuries were consitent with strangulation.

The Medical Examiner can (and should) be subject to adverse license action by the Medical Board should he fail to exercise appropriate judgement in accordance with the state medical practice act.

If Terri dies from this recent action, we must all contact him immediately and demand justice for Terri. If a crime was committed, then several people need to go to jail including those who conspired to kill her (and cover it up)... Michael Schiavo, his live-in girlfriend, "Judge" Greer, the hospice staff, the physicians and those politicians and judges who failed to act on her behalf.

Contact information:
Jon R. Thogmartin, M.D., District Chief Medical Examiner
10900 Ulmerton Rd., Largo FL 33778
Telephone #. (727) 582-6800
Fax # (727) 582-6820
mailto:wpellan@co.pinellas.fl.us

I hope we never have to use this information, but please keep it available in case the evil forces of the immoral culture of death win.

Robert W. Smith MD

Posted by: Robert W. Smith MD at March 18, 2005 4:11 PM

May God be with Terri and her family during this horrible time in their lives. My prayers go out to them and I honestly hope that Congress can get something done this weekend to get that feeding tube back in until Terri comes out of this state... which I honestly believe can and will happen if it's the Lords will.

Posted by: James M Wimmer at March 18, 2005 10:21 PM

I have seen the comments that have come from what I can term extraordinarily ignorant people. I will not entertain the feeding of Troll Joey, because he was way off with those comments about stem cells. What he said is inaccurate as far as Terri is concerned.

What I want to deal with is the arrogance of George Greer. Since I am not a US citizen it is hard for me to distinguish what is and what is not the rule of law in this case. However, I have read bits and pieces of the evidence, and no upright judge could possibly go ahead and make a decision like Greer.

One person has already mentioned that the Empire Journal has been hacked. I think that a serious crime has also been committed by the hacking of that site in order to remove articles that pointed to the culpability of Greer, Schiavo and Felos, as well as the possibility of Medicaid fraud. These allegations must be investigated. They must not be allowed to continue to sweep the allegations under the carpet.

Also, Michael Schiavo has been caught out being inconsistent in his evidence again. This time it is the alleged conversation (that never happened in the first place) concerning life support. He testified that the remark was made when a grandmother was dying, yet on his most recent interview he said that the conversation happened 18 years ago and that she had watched a TV show and that her uncle was dying. This is a direct contradiction of not only his own evidence on the hearsay evidence but a further attempt to discredit Terri's friend.

Posted by: Maggie at March 18, 2005 11:23 PM